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  1. #51

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    My favorite bach for sightreading is barry galbraith's transcriptions of the two part inventions:

    https://www.amazon.com/Barry-Galbrai.../dp/1562240412

    it has way more in common with jazz guitar than CG arrangements of same, which are a lot of times gonna stay in a lower position, etc.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Take a look at David Oakes “Music Reading for Guitar The Complete Method”. It has graded studies and explains how to navigate a score. Best is that unlike classical guitar, it starts you out reading at the fifth fret.

    I highly recommend it for the beginner.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    Graded material for big band guitar? Hmmm.

    What do high school jazz band leaders utilize? Not that it would be "graded" as such, but should be less challenging then college charts.

    For that matter, where does one get the college charts?

    The band directors know where to get that stuff, but I don't.
    Publishers actually assign a difficulty level to the arrangements in their catalogs from very easy to advanced, and everything in between. Online catalogs usually have a sample of the score, plus an audio sample to listen to.

    Basie-Straight Ahead by Sammy Nestico| J.W. Pepper Sheet Music

  5. #54

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    Nice, thanks cosmic!

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickB
    Take a look at David Oakes “Music Reading for Guitar The Complete Method”. It has graded studies and explains how to navigate a score. Best is that unlike classical guitar, it starts you out reading at the fifth fret.

    I highly recommend it for the beginner.
    I will Patrick, might be great for students

  7. #56

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    I've had this book for awhile and use it occasionally for ideas.

    I second Christian's suggestion about studying rhythm.

    Why Learn Standard Notation?-515iggqiikl-_sy346_-jpg

  8. #57
    Either because they (the teachers) couldn’t read, or, more likely, because they thought you’d quit (if “forced” to read).
    I was taught to read 50 years ago and I constantly still thank that man.
    I learned to read on clarinet.
    You could probably do quite a few things - actually many things - without reading or writing English, but there are many useful things you couldn’t do.
    i was going to suggest, as an example, leaving a note on somebody’s door but of course that doesn’t apply any more. The illiterate would just take out his iPhone.

    I met a guy on Craigslist. For a couple of years now we meet and read duets. Sometimes we use Real Book. One of us plays the chords. The other reads the melody. I read it in different positions. This helps with knowing the fingerboard, which helps with improvisation.

  9. #58

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    I would ask, what is the plus side of not learning standard notation?

  10. #59
    My notes:
    SN=Standard Notation

    A> Imagine some magic pill: You bought it from Amazon $9.99. You swallowed it and you could read like Bill Evans or Segovia.
    Would you swallow it?
    Assuming (almost) everybody would (see B below) the following question emerges (to me):
    IS IT WORTH THE STUDY?
    I want to say - one who continues to study reading SN - the answer is YES. But ......, I FIND IT HARD - BUT REWARDING - A CONTINUING CHALLENGE!!!

    - I find it exhilarating (knowing my instrument, like the big boys)
    - It reminds me I also need to read RHYTHMS!
    - I can read duets
    Honestly, I’m having a hard time articulating why I love it.
    I guess it’s “just” because I can relate to a piece of SN-written music in a deeper way. That’s empowering. (I know justification is vague).

    B> Will knowing SN steal your creativity/spontaneity?
    There are those who maintain “it will harm you, crush your creativity”.
    I’m not sure if that’s so. Seems unlikely to me.

    C>
    Is not knowing SN limiting?
    There’s a Dizzy Gillespie quote about a (Cuban?) trumpet player: “He can’t read a note of music but he can play his a$$ off”.
    Also, Glen Campbell, a respected guitarist couldn’t read.
    so maybe it isn’t limiting to everybody. NOT trying to be funny or callous: Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder can’t read, although they may have special Braille accommodations.

  11. #60

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    I don't see how having more capabilities limits you. It's just another tool available to you, and you should use the best tool you have for the task at hand. Certainly there are musicians who can't read, now and in the past, but I wonder how much more they could have done if they could have read.

  12. #61
    The plus side of not learning?
    A lot of effort is not put forth.
    Investments, by their nature imply sacrifice or risk:
    > You go to the gym every day hoping to be strong and healthy. Takes time away from other things
    > You eat healthy. You sacrifice the significant pleasure of ice cream and chicken wings
    > You work for money. Time-consuming!!
    OK. I’ve probably annoyed some people already (as if they didn’t know such things!)
    Perhaps worth a reminder:
    Like any investment: The longer you get to enjoy the rewards, the better the investment.
    If I taught guitar, I’d have students reading from Day 1. My lessons, therefore would be most valuable to young students.

    I fear everything I’ve written here is painfully obvious. No disrespect intended.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarStudent
    B> Will knowing SN steal your creativity/spontaneity? There are those who maintain “it will harm you, crush your creativity”. I’m not sure if that’s so. Seems unlikely to me.
    I totally agree with you on that. I said it here somewhere before: if your talent is so weak it needs that level of protection you should stop wasting your time with music. EG: it's pretty unlikely that someone with the talents of a Stephen King or a James Joyce has to avoid reading the morning paper for fear it might pollute his day's work.

    Not to say everyone has to read. I've known many wonderfully creative players on both sides of it.

  14. #63

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    My experience was that I started reading from my first lesson.

    On the positive side, most of the gigs I get require reading. There are lots of players who can play rings around me, but they can't read. And, I enjoy the challenge of reading and the bands I play in.

    That said, I've often wondered if I'd be a better player if I'd had to rely completely on my ear. That side of things didn't come so easily and I was prone to gloss over it.

    My only advice is this. Reading will open up opportunities, but be sure not to neglect your ear.

  15. #64

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    Eventually you might want to play with other people. Good players that can read can get through say a gig setlist in one rehearsal. No need to remember anything, it's all written down. Non readers would require how many rehearsals to do it? Or how many hours of preparation at home? .. ain't gonna happen

  16. #65

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    Know what you read, but don’t read what you know.

    That summarizes my view about the topic. I presume that you have an acceptable knowledge in sight reading, but I don’t want you to be dependent on it.

    Sight reading is not the most important thing for me. Everyone shall have at least basic knowledge in standard notation and sight reading. That’s enough for me.

    Therefore, I feel that knowledge in music theory is far more necessary than sight reading. Jazz guitarists who don’t know music theory have a LOT of things to work on. It’s not a big deal if a jazz guitarist isn’t a skilled sight reader, but the person must have some kind of theoretical overview about what is going on. Jazz and music in general is based on theoretical building blocks. Therefore, it requires that we all have good theoretical skills. Everyone can’t or don’t want to be professors in music theory and sight reading, but we all shall have at least SOME knowledge about them. I don’t want to imagine what a horrible feeling it’ll be to talk about 2-5-1 chord progressions with a jazz guitarist who doesn’t know music theory!
    Last edited by Bbmaj7#5#9; 08-01-2019 at 07:56 PM.

  17. #66

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    Why Learn Standard Notation?


    Why learn anything? Because it's useful. But no one says you have to.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    Eventually you might want to play with other people. Good players that can read can get through say a gig setlist in one rehearsal. No need to remember anything, it's all written down. Non readers would require how many rehearsals to do it? Or how many hours of preparation at home? .. ain't gonna happen
    I've had many gigs with no rehearsal. Including playing originals, with the charts distributed and, a moment later you're performing the tune. Good readers can do that, even with very poor quality charts. A high skill level required to take a handwritten, sloppy, chords-only chart of a tune you've never heard and play it behind a singer. If you get lost or the singer screws up the roadmap, you have to be able to find your place by knowing the sound of the chords in the chart. And you may have to do that even though you're the chord instrument!

    I've had another group of gigs where there's no rehearsal, but I get the charts to look over in advance.

    And, then, still another group where there is extensive rehearsal ,on lots of tunes and despite that, the leader still puts brand new material in front of the sidemen on a gig and you play it cold. I have never understood that mindset. I figure, why take a chance on performing something poorly when you have lots of rehearsed material in the book? But, it's happened a number of times.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbmaj7#5#9
    Know what you read, but don’t read what you know.

    That summarizes my view about the topic. I presume that you have an acceptable knowledge in sight reading, but I don’t want you to be dependent on it.

    Sight reading is not the most important thing for me. Everyone shall have at least basic knowledge in standard notation and sight reading. That’s enough for me.

    Therefore, I feel that knowledge in music theory is far more necessary than sight reading. Jazz guitarists who don’t know music theory have a LOT of things to work on. It’s not a big deal if a jazz guitarist isn’t a skilled sight reader, but the person must have some kind of theoretical overview about what is going on. Jazz and music in general is based on theoretical building blocks. Therefore, it requires that we all have good theoretical skills. Everyone can’t or don’t want to be professors in music theory and sight reading, but we all shall have at least SOME knowledge about them. I don’t want to imagine what a horrible feeling it’ll be to talk about 2-5-1 chord progressions with a jazz guitarist who doesn’t know music theory!
    If one wants employment as a jazz guitarist you need either 1) a good repertoire (i.e. a few hundred) tunes or 2) good sight reading (staff notation and chords*). Or preferably both. You also need a good ear and good time.

    Theory is not important, unless you teach.

    It's rare I come across a situation where something needs to be theoretically explained to a professional musician, perhaps if I wrote more complicated music.

    Wether you lean 1 or 2 will shape what type of music you end up playing... 1's will tend to be more straight-ahead players, and often quite uninterested in music theory per se. The 2nd may be a lot more music theory literate depending on the gigs they play.

    Most jazz guitar players know more than enough theory anyway, because for better or worse that's how most of us learn to improvise, although they might not be able to communicate it clearly (which is much harder.)

    Theory itself is really a process of naming things... The real knowledge is intuitive.

    *depending on the music this may well imply a high level of theoretical knowledge.

  20. #69

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    I probably have a quite different opinion about what sight reading really is. For me there’s a huge difference between reading and sight reading. All musicians must be able to read music. No matter what instrument you’re playing. It’s another question how long time you need to read. That was what I meant in my first reply to this thread.

    But for me sight reading is a completely different thing. It’s a bit like asking: ”Well, how fast must a person be able to read the whole alphabet”? I’ve even heard lecturers at musical academies saying this to me.

    I can’t remember any problems about getting the scores one or two weeks before a concert. Almost everytime the arranger has actually been very pleased about it. Who knows, rather a guitar player who know all songs to perfection than a nervous sight reader?
    Last edited by Bbmaj7#5#9; 08-02-2019 at 06:47 AM.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Theory itself is really a process of naming things... The real knowledge is intuitive.
    That was rather good :-)

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbmaj7#5#9
    I probably have a quite different opinion about what sight reading really is. For me there’s a huge difference between reading and sight reading. All musicians must be able to read music. No matter what instrument you’re playing. It’s another question how long time you need to read. That was what I meant in my first reply to this thread.

    But for me sight reading is a completely different thing. It’s a bit like asking: ”Well, how fast must a person be able to read the whole alphabet”? I’ve even heard lecturers at musical academies saying this to me.

    I can’t remember any problems about getting the scores one or two weeks before a concert. Almost everytime the arranger has actually been very pleased about it. Who knows, rather a guitar player who know all songs to perfection than a nervous sight reader?
    That’s a point you have these things starting with R in Sweden.... what’s the word again? Like when you play music but it’s just the musicians, and you can stop and fix things?

  23. #72

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    I play in a band with 4 horns and another with 15 horns. And, rhythm section in each.

    Everybody else can look at a typical chart and play it, with few or no mistakes, the first time. This is a mix of pro and semi-pro players.

    If the chart is unusual in some way then the first read-through is likely to sound pretty rough, but that's the exception.

    Example: A tune nobody knew in 2/4. Except, in the outro there were three bars of 5/8, with the melody rewritten to accommodate it, then a return to 2/4 --- all twice. We had to slow that one down and loop it a couple of times.

    That's what a lot of musicians can do. All the horn players, the pianist and most bassists that we've had. Not too many guitarists though.

    Based on what I see going on in my area, I don't see how anybody is going to be successful as a poor or non-reader, even if you know hundreds of tunes. I just don't see those kind of gigs very often. Maybe I'm hanging out in the wrong places, but the jazz bands I see are playing arrangements most of the time. If they play a standard it's arranged, not just everybody playing a tune from memory.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That’s a point you have these things starting with R in Sweden.... what’s the word again? Like when you play music but it’s just the musicians, and you can stop and fix things?
    R+ehearsals=Maybe (or not at all)

    Nevermind
    Last edited by Bbmaj7#5#9; 08-02-2019 at 02:56 PM.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbmaj7#5#9
    R+ehearsals=Maybe (or not at all)

    Nevermind
    Yes that’s it!

    People tell me those things are quite helpful.

  26. #75
    I’ve been thinking about this thread: “Why Learn Standard Notation?”
    Today it occurred to me .......
    Why? Because it is FUN.

    Mastery, to me, is fun - whether learning to ride a horse or speak another language or cook fish. It’s fun / rewarding / exhilarating!

    BTW: I don’t earn my living as a musician.

    There is often so much information in a sheet of music: The melody, the bass line, the harmony, rhythm, dynamics.

    I find it exhilirating to to be able to turn a sheet into music. To improve! Fun, rewarding. People do crossword puzzles for fun. Reading music has all that plus something sweet to hear.

    Fun is my main reason for my (continually) working at reading music.