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Im seriously considering having Franz build an Elferink guitar for me.
As reflected in the title Im questioning size. I have two 17 inch guitars. I dont find them uncomfortable at all.
Im not a big guy. Im 5"10 and kind of lanky.
This guitar will be played at home and sitting. Frans also tapers his guitar bodies.
The cost difference is extremely negligible, not even worth mentioning.
What says the crowd....and no, I dont have any 18 inch archtops around to try.
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06-07-2026 11:43 AM
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Go big or go home!
I’ve owned many 18” Heritage Super Eagles. Since they’re only 3” deep they’re as comfortable to play as a 17.”
For me, the extra tonal difference is significant enough to justify the guitar.
I’ve also owned a Super 400. Its depth is 3 3/8”. Doesn’t sound like much of a difference but I could truly feel its size.
I assume Eff is making his 18’s at 3” depth like Heritage?
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I have an 18 inch Yunzhi with a 4inch depth.
My criteria was a big sounding Acoustic Archtop, so I took into consideration that Jumbo acoustic guitars are between 4-5 inch depth.
I only play it acoustically at home.
With bronze strings it sounds big and great, to my ears at least. I like plenty of bass, I play with fingers no nails.
Here is how the guitar sounds:
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His guitar bodies dimensionsL " 2,75 to 3,25” tapered body"
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I suspect that he’d make it as deep as you want it to be. The problem for you is that guessing what you’ll like is a pure crapshoot. Without experience to narrow your options, the odds that you’ll guess correctly are slim. If you guess wrong, you’ll have waited a long time and spent a lot of money on a guitar with which you’re not 100% thrilled.
Before I'd commission a custom guitar, I’d find a few similar in size to what you’re considering. I’m over 6’ with a very long wingspan. Back when I played 6 strings, I found that a Super 400 didn’t let me shift hand and arm positions naturally as I play. I don’t want the inside of my right arm to press against the top of the lower bout. The 3 3/8 depth made me have to hold my arm away from it, which was not a relaxed position for me. A guitar that fits you well is like clothes that do the same - you don’t notice them at all as you move around and do the things you do.
My Eastman 810CE7 is 17x3 1/8”, which is the biggest body I find comfortable and relaxing to play. Even the extra 1/4” of an L-5’s depth puts the rim against the inside of my upper arm when I pick near the end of the fingerboard. I have 3 fairly slim (2.5”) 16s that are so comfortable and feel so natural that I think I’d be fine with an 18x2.5 - but even this is only an informed guess.
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An 18 if all other things are equal should be louder and with a bit more oomph. However, that does not always work out just the way builders and different guitars are made by companies. There are plenty of L5s with more power than a Super 400. Power is only once piece of the puzzle. Pure power and no natural sustain and reverberation are not good to me. Some Stromberg's have this problem they are loud but do not expect a beautiful solo chord melody of a tune to be great. I have 18 inch guitars and 17 inch but I prefer to play an 18 they sit better in my lap.
Even the depth of the rim being deeper may not necessarily make the guitar more powerful. The back (rock maple) is supposed the throw the sound out and sometimes more depth I think can get lost. I have and 18-inch Hollenbeck and an 18-inch Campellone but the size of the bodies are different. The Hollenbeck has a more pinched upper bout and just a hair bit shallower than the Campellone. Both have huge power and voice, but the Hollenbeck can push a notch up that the Campy does not quite get too. It would be hard to tell unless you spent time them as such. My 17 inch Barker does not have overall power of either but for some things has a prettier voice.
If the truth be known no guitar will cover all the bases because everything is a tradeoff for a particular situation. Frans makes a fine guitar and a great fellow but personally I would never anymore have a guitar built for myself with some specs. To me it never ends up quite what you what or expect and then you have something that is not in the "catalog." Find a guitar you like, and it plays well and they buy that guitar. It removes all the unknown and you can determine for yourself what the guitar is should you want to part with it in the future.
So here is a thought. These days because of the " maybe I will sell this down the road," phenomenon I advise sticking to know guitars. The first and foremost being if it says Gibson on the headstock. An absolute case in point on my Chicago trip 11 days ago to play a Super 400c. My Campellone is an 18 and is completely smokes and blows away the Super 400c I tried at CME. That said the Super 400 was not a bad guitar as such but to me nothing to close to the Campy. That Super 400 would easily command more money in the used guitar market and probably sell much faster, although the CME has not moved fast.
If you have the money find and L5 or a Super 400. THE SUNDAY SERMON.....................
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Lots of good advice in that Sunday sermon from the Deacon!
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Speaking for myself, I have never played an 18" for any extended period, just briefly at music stores, and since I haven't, I would never have one built for me. Many folks say they are uncomfortable.
Originally Posted by Sigmund451
I have owned several 17" L5 type guitars, and they were great. So when the time came, and I ordered a Campy, it was a 17". I find it very comfortable, but I even think the 16" inch arch top I have might be a bit better for me, and I am 6'3".
I agree that a Gibson is a more sure fire investment and easier to flip if desired, but I didn't worry about that with the Campellone, and I suspect if I had to sell it I could pretty quickly. As it is they will have to pry it from my hands when I'm done!
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If you already have one or more 17" archtops and that's a comfortable size for you, I think at your size an 18" is both feasible and desirable. It's a somewhat different sound.
Now, loudness is not alone the primary reason for the 18" over a 17" I have several 17" archtops and four 18": Gibson Super 400 X-braced, Super 400 Parallel-braced, Super 4000 and an 18-1/2" Epiphone Emperor. All are carved as acoustic guitars. My loudest guitar does happen to be both loudest and the one that projects volume with the least amount of plucked or strummed input, relatively. So you could say it's sensitive. That's the Gibson Super 4000 -- but it's a guitar that was designed in collaboration with Chet Atkins (his last collaboration) and its sound reflects Chet's playing, proclivities and musical range. Sonically, it's not strictly a jazz guitar. But both my 17" Gibson L-5 CT Acoustic and 17" Guild Benedetto Johnny Smith Award can rival it for sheer volume. There are no apologies for their inch less lower bout dimension. Note that both the Super 4000 and the L-5CT Acoustic are relatively thinner-bodied guitars.
Not much behind the Super 4000 in terms of volume and projection are the Epiphone Emperor Regent, and the two Super 400s. These are all volume rivals, and I'll put the (nominally) 17" Gibson Legrand in the same boat. What changes with the 18" Gibsons and Epiphone relative to all the 17" archtops is the tonal balance, which affects how you perceive the "size" of sound and scale of projection. Tuned conventionally, the sixth string is still an E at 82 Hz, but the bass presence from the 18" guitars is more pronounced and resonant, affecting the tonal balance. You don't lose top end from the 18" but you get a more fundamental sound that retains the harmonic completeness intrinsic to the guitars. In the case of the Epiphone, this definitely makes it "warmer" on balance. Same is true for the parallel-braced Super 400. But the the X-braced Super 400 and the Super 4000, give more "cut" along with the larger sonic presence that the bass side adds, if that makes any sense to you.
With the 17" guitars, there is a tilt to more of a point-source projection that gives an immediate sense of clarity. With the 18" guitars, there's more "shove" and unity in the wavefront. To some it's probably subtle, but the differences become more obvious as you gain experience with both sizes of archtops. Neither is better than the other but what you feel and hear while playing is likely to influence how you play the same thing on both.
I agree, from a liquidity standpoint, just find a Super 400 you like, for an 18", as opposed to getting a custom build. Epiphone Emperors are comparatively liquid too. And I'll point out that some people who feel a Super 400 is too full under the arm, find the Epiphone Emperor shape with its slightly even larger lower bout coupled to its more sharply-waisted and smaller upper bout, easier to manage. So you could look for one of those, or if you are having a luthier guitar custom-built, you might ask if it can be built to the body dimensions of a vintage Epiphone Emperor, Regent or non-cutaway.
I'm 6'3" and want -- and have had on indefinite custom order -- a 19". But I wouldn't expect anything transformational from it.
Phil
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And consider the neck shape on those old Epis vs Gibsons and nut width. For me, a V neck is a non starter. Originally Posted by 213Cobra
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Are you interested in non-cut acoustic? Cutaway? Floater? Electric with mounted humbuckers?
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BTW Phil, Guild did make some 18 inch Artist Awards. You might need one of these for your AA collection along with that NH American Patriarch model that we have discussed. Originally Posted by 213Cobra
You now have two phantoms to chase,
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Don't I know it! I was just telling Deacon on a phone call a few days ago that the guitar I kick myself for not nabbing in the last year was the Carlo Greco-built 1969 18" Guild AA that Guitars'n'Jazz had posted for most of a year. I'm pretty thorough on Guild knowledge but I didn't know there was ever an 18" Artist Award until that listing. It was in pretty good condition, save for a crumbled-away heel cap. Since 1969 was a transition year between Hoboken and Westerly I was focussed on determining which town it was actually built in since Hoboken was my objective. You couldn't trust the labels at that time, because Dronge used Hoboken labels during and after the move until they were used up. Anyway, time ticked by, and a couple of Gibson Super 400s popped up to divert me. But after all that, one night last autumn I was lying awake pondering that Guild 18" and resolved I'd pick up the phone and make a deal the next morning. Of course, I wake up in L.A. but it's already coming up on noon in NJ. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
BTW Phil, Guild did make some 18 inch Artist Awards. You might need one of these for your AA collection along with that NH American Patriarch model that we have discussed.
You now have two phantoms to chase,
After all that time pondering, figuring I had plenty of time, I woke up that morning after, refreshed the web page the Guild was on, and it had just been sold!
I doubt I'll see another one, and I have similar confidence about encountering an available New Haven American Patriarch AA. I also am not certain any Guild Johnny Smiths were made in the New York shop before the Hoboken move. So I might have to look for an A-500 or A-350 to represent the New York boys' craftmanship, leave the big bellies to Gibson, Epiphone and Stromberg, and let my Westerly AA represent all New England production.
If I had decided a day or two sooner, I'd have that Greco 18" AA alongside the others. Or, it was just not meant for me.
Phil
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Once last question on size: Playing plugged in...is the difference between a 17 and an 18 signficant?
My right ear is shot so I miss out on a lot of the acoustic properties.
@woody, Im looking at electric w/floater
Lots to think about here.
Gibsons are even higher in the EU and importing them is also expensive. A super is generally
I really have no business with a custom made guitar or anything more than my 810ce. Ive just picked this up after 30 years.
The last years were spent fiddling with saxophones and building hand crafted mouthpieces.
Im not a good player but as a result of my years in that field Im very sensitive to tone and any interuptions in tone and timbre. Also Im older and Id just like to have something REALLY nice. I simply cant find it to justify a 10k (or more) guitar.
As long as its a really good guitar Im not terribly worried about resale. Im getting older and I still have guitars I bought 40 years ago. I might sell some since I dont play them but its a pain. When I drop dead someone else can sell them.
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I know that Heritage made two Johnny Smiths in 18". I don't know if they made any more than that or not.
Heritage 18" Johnny Smith
Why not look/wait for a deal on something that can be easily flipped if you don't like the size/feel. Then you'll know for sure what you really want. Here's one:
The Marketplace for Musicians | Reverb.com
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I feel your pain. Selling my 71 AA (built by Greco) was a mistake. I used the proceeds from that sale (along with three other guitars) to buy my 1935 D'Angelico Excel. In retrospect, I have to say that the Greco built Guilds are right up there with the work of John D'Angelico (and can be had for way less money). And having had the Greco built Guild AA alongside a Guild-Benedetto AA, it is my opinion that the Greco guitar was the better sounding of the two, both plugged in (with it's DeArmond 1100) and unplugged. Originally Posted by 213Cobra
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Given the cost of the guitars under discussion, I’d rather spend the cost of travel to try an 18 than take a huge chance on getting stuck with an expensive guitar that I don’t love. I gather you’re in the EU from your most recent post in this thread. I don’t know how far you are from London, but Hank’s has a Super 400. If you could get there for a day or two, it would let you experience an 18 for far less money than you’d lose having to flip a custom built €10,000 guitar.
The total cost of ownership includes more than the purchase price.
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For me it’s shoulder problems. So I gave up on Dreadnaught Martins over 10 years ago as an example.
Unless you have long arms,make sure to consider the depth factor.
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Playing plugged in, even with a floater, the sound coming from the amp speaker is determined by the pickup. But in most rooms, the acoustic power of these guitars will still be a significant component of the combined sound. Originally Posted by Sigmund451
Unlike guitars with factory set-in pickups, which are usually carved and/or braced thicker or laminated to be electric guitars with intentionally-truncated acoustic performance, an archtop with a native floater is usually built to be an acoustic instrument with an electrified option, wherein electrification doesn't compromise the soundboard. The floating pickup will deliver amplified sound that minimizes the differences between playing 17" and 18" guitars with identical floaters, assuming same scale lengths and strings. Judging strictly by the amplified sound alone, you might not hear any difference at all via the amp or a DAW via headphones, but what you feel in your body while playing may affect your perception of the amplified tone.
Phil
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That is correct an acoustic with a floater like a Ken Armstrong or Dearmond will sound pretty much the same as such on either the 18 or 17. They will sound different but with identical pickups the different is not like playing acoustically. Once you plug an acoustic archtop in then it quite removes it from the sense of acoustic sound. The resonance of the guitar and top will contribute to how much it feeds back too. Feedback can be a problem, but you have know the limitations.
My guitars that are acoustically louder do not necessarily feedback more or faster. I never play at those volumes but when in particular circumstances I get feedback but the variables are too many to break down.
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That being the case if I go that route I will stick with a 17.
No reason to tempt fate.
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I like 18 inch guitars for 2 reason that might make sense. I am taller maybe close to 6'2' although in years sunk a bit. An 18 sits in my lap the way I play well, and I can feel the guitar as I play it in the chest. The other reason goes way back to my formative days as a guitarist who liked archtops. I played my first Dangelico New Yorker at 17 and it was an 18 inch guitar. That guitar simply had the sound that no other guitar quite did. Not that others may have sounded as good but the whole picture, volume, presence and feel still sit with me today. At the same time I made another trip at 18 to Gruhn's. They let me in and had me play all the archtops and one I remember in particular. It was 1937 Super 400 the guy was packing up to a buyer. I played it and it was fantastic the same experience I had with the D'angelico in that guitar had power but also very smooth and could be played mellow. Then Barker got one of his 18 inch guitars made and it simply was fantastic, he rarely made 18's. Well that did it and from then on I have been on the 18 kick.
In my older age though a nice 17 can feel great and as big since I am shrinking right? The end of the story is I went back a few years later and got that particular 18 inch New Yorker........play it most days these days. So if you here from me get an 18.
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I hate to be a thorn is the side, but you may be missing out on a wonderful thing. Read Deacon Mark's last post again and think about it carefully. He fell in love with 18s as a teenager and the affair has lasted. You're talking about what is probably one of the biggest expenses in your life after house, car, higher education, and children. You may love an 18 - but you'll never know if you don't find one to try. We grow old too soon and smart too late. Originally Posted by Sigmund451
Fortunately, I'm old enough to have been a teenage jazz guitarist before Gibson went Norlin, Fender went CBS, etc. I got to walk into music stores and play everybody's high end guitars and amplifiers when I was just starting out. I got to Philadelphia and New York to visit the great independent music stores of old. As a result, I had a new LG-1 when I was 12, a heavily used 345 when I was 14, a less heavily used 175 when I was 15, and a new L5-CN when I was 24. I tried everything from Gretsch to Vega along the way. I picked up a '34 L-5 that a friend in college inherited. Those were glorious days. But I found things I truly love that I never would have bought without experiencing them. I used an Ampeg B15N for over a decade after I discovered it in my local music store when I was 16 and using a 15" Fender Pro I'd bought there the year before (yes, I made enough gigging as a high school kid to buy this stuff and still save enough for college - another sign of how old I am).
I also discovered that I would never have been happy with some things that I decided I really wanted purely from reviews and seeing my idol(s) play them. I finally got to try a Gretsch Van Eps 7 at Rudy's. I went there with $ fully intent on buying it. It took 30 seconds with it in my lap to realize that I hated it. It sounded and felt terrible to me, despite raves from some pro users. I was initially disappointed in a lot of high end guitars when I got to play them. My first experiences with D'Angelico and Benedetto were lukewarm because the particular guitars I got to try were just not my cup of tea. Our relationship with guitars is very personal and on a par with picking a lifetime mate. Obviously, mail order brides work for some - but trusting fate has never worked out well for me. I have to get mhy hands on it!
If at all possible, I urge you to find the shop with the closest 18" archtop to you and get there to try it. If you don't like it, you'll live happily ever after with a 17. If you love it, you'll realize how unfulfilled you'd be never having had one. Life is too short to cut yourself off at the knees. Go all the way - the experience is worth it whether or not you love what you find.
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I wrote in my earlier post that I think Sigmund451 should go for an 18", especially since he already has a 17". So I second Deacon's and third Never's emphatic urging to add an 18".
I started in guitar at 14, but on flat top guitars, in 1968, on concert size, then dreadnought, then jumbo steel strings. Each jump in size led to more engagement, though the smaller guitars didn't become less relevant, just different voices and feels for different moods. I was glad to have all of them. I didn't get my first archtop until 1991 (well, if you don't count the Gibson ES-335 I bought in 1990), which was a first-year-production Gibson ES-165, a 16" single embedded pickup hollow body electric. Then in 1994, my first acoustic archtop, a new Guild Artist Award, a 17 incher. After that I added more 17" archtops but the memory of playing a Super 400 and an 18" D'Angelico by chance way back around 1972 stayed prominent in my memory as though something was missing. I finally got my first 18" archtop, one of the 25 Gibson Super 4000s made between the latter mid 1990s and early 2000s., in 2010. It was an unusually gratifying purchase after a few decades had elapsed since those initial 18" archtops memories from the early 1970s. I since added, as I mentioned, a couple of Super 400s and a big-bodied 1951 Epiphone Emperor Regent with no pickup (although it's clear someone had once installed and removed a floater, likely Dearmond).
If Sigmund451 has one damaged ear, the acoustic properties of the 18" v. the 17" will still be recognizable, and even if the 18" is played through an amp via its floating pickup, the sensory inputs from embracing and playing the 18 incher will still not go unnoticed.
So, yeah, before you write off an 18" guitar, find one to play and see for yourself. If the difference doesn't register or any other objection arises, no harm / no foul. But when you have a chance to add an element of variety, it's more often than not good to take it. The idea of adding an 18" instead of another 17" won't tempt fate, but the reality is likely to be more than tempting.
Phil
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Forum member 'Rob MacKillop' had a 18inch Frans Elferink - Excalibur Archtop.
Forum thread: Frans Elferink - Excalibur
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