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So, how do folks think it's best to achieve a measure of success in learning jazz guitar. Let's define success as either being able to hang at a friendly jam session or, for those of us less socially inclined, play decently over a decent backing track. I'm talking strictly about soloing here, not comping.
For myself, I've been using what folks seem to describe as the lego brick approach - take small portions of phrases and string them together, learn how to vary them rhythmically and melodically. Plus all the usual stuff about enclosures, pivots, skips, arpeggios, etc etc. I like to call them 'licky bricks', because my cat's favourite treat is called 'licky sticks'. Actually, I'm not sure if that's the brand name or just the phrase my wife uses for the cat. Not that I think I've achieved 'success' according to my own definition. Anyway....
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06-05-2026 12:46 PM
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I should add that I do listen to jazz, usually 1-2 hours an evening while I'm cooking. But I confess, other than when I transcribe, which is rare, I don't do the sort of focussed listening that Brent describes in his Showcase thread. Normally it's on in the background and I might scat sing a phrase I like, or try and remember an idea I hear for practice later. I'm sure more focussed listening would be very beneficial. And better ears.
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When I was young I spent a lot of time learning Jimmy Page's solo on Since I've Been Loving You. I like to think some of the feel rubbed off on me, and at one point I believed I could do a half-way decent improvisation over it, largely because I learnt the notes so well I didn't have to think about them. For jazz, I'm still not quite at that stage, so I'm spending too much mental energy thinking about the notes. More and more I think that, if I could forget about the right notes, I'd instead be able to improvise rhythmically and with true feeling.
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So I have an opinion on this a little stronger than most things. I spent years practicing arps scales and enclosures in order to make lines. And I could make lines that I was happy with. I thought one day I'd be able to construct them on the fly if I stuck to that method. It just never happened.
So here is a video from a few years ago of an 'etude" blues I wrote. Took about half an hour probably. If I spent time getting it clean and faster it would be decent. So I thought "each time will be faster until it is real time."
I took a couple years off from playing and then spent about a year memorizing vocab. In this video from about a year ago maybe my playing is better maybe not, but the difference is I just sat down and played it. That whole solo is 2 bar phrases and I mixed and matched them in an order on the fly. Much closer to improvising. Now (a year later or so) I can basically use smaller bits and pieces of these to the point that they arren't even the same licks. Improv by any definition, plus play them as longer licks on auto pilot if I get stuck. I can jam a blues that sounds like jazz now, I couldn't before.
I was going on in that other thread because at this point I'm lamenting the fact I didn't take this approach sooner, and it was cool to see someone who is on that track and making exceptional progress. I guess you could say i'm "mad at theory" but only because it distracted me from the important things.
Be able to play vocab at medium swing through the cycle, then analyze if you want...but you might not want to
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I've been taking a line I like and run it through major, minor and dominant. Then turn it into a ii V I line and run that through 12 keys with a backing track. Christian did this in a video, but instead of 12 keys he applied it to a tune. That's the next step for me.
This is the stuff that helps you play the language, if you come across a tongue twister in a line, figure out what it is and shed it. The great thing about working on Parker heads is everyone and their brother has analyzed them and you can look up what is going on in any troublesome bar. You could also figure it out yourself, the more you do this, the more things pop out.Plus all the usual stuff about enclosures, pivots, skips, arpeggios, etc etc.
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I've been too lazy to play lines in all 12 keys. My compromise is to try them over the chord of whichever tune I'm working on at the moment. Most of them seem to be in F
Regarding learning language from heads, I have a controversial opinion without any standing to back it up. While I agree there's great bebop language in them, there's I think lots more to be learnt from the solos. You listen to a Parker tune and, as soon as the head is done, he really opens up and I think there's a lot to be learnt there.
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thank god
Originally Posted by kris
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Same shape and fingering..I figure I don't know them well enough if playing through the cycle isn't easy Originally Posted by CliffR
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I did play a handful of gigs in my youth. The first was a battle of the bands thing at University. Apparently by the end people were getting ready to start throwing things at us Originally Posted by kris
. I remember being so nervous that every time I lifted my foot off the floor to tap it, I could feel it trembling. The guitar felt like an alien thing in my hands. After that I played a few gigs as rhythm guitarist in an indie, Pixies-inspired band. I really enjoyed that, and didn't feel so much pressure. The songs the guy wrote were pretty good, I thought.
But playing jazz live seems like a tall order. I hear at your first gig you play at like 30% of your ability. Maybe if I perform at our local jam I'll have more respect for those guitarists who already do and I think I'm better than
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Probably with Joe.
Some scales and arpeggios and things are good for fretboard knowledge too.
I think also picking a small handful of licks that are simple enough to apply to tunes quickly is really useful.
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My thinking is, if I can’t play the simple stuff, I won’t be able to play when he opens up. Originally Posted by CliffR
I've been too lazy to play lines in all 12 keys. My compromise is to try them over the chord of whichever tune I'm working on at the moment. Most of them seem to be in F
Regarding learning language from heads, I have a controversial opinion without any standing to back it up. While I agree there's great bebop language in them, there's I think lots more to be learnt from the solos. You listen to a Parker tune and, as soon as the head is done, he really opens up and I think there's a lot to be learnt there.
Not that I haven’t pulled lines from solos. I’m also lazy and if you learn the head it’s easier to restart the song over and over.
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I think that if you have opportunities to play with other people you should go do that without waiting until you think you have enough chops, vocabulary, and theory knowledge. That's really the only test of where you are as a jazz player and and will do more for teaching you how to integrate the pieces you've been working on into real soloing than you can do on your own. I'm not saying that you shouldn't practice the things you're practicing, but the actual process of playing this music is not simply a matter of stringing together blocks of muscle-memorized phrases. It's process of hearing/reacting/executing in real time, which is nigh on impossible to simulate on your own. The key is to not be afraid of failing. Just go play.
It's kind of like playing tennis. You can hit the ball against the wall and get pretty good at keeping a rally with yourself going, but that isn't a substitute for hitting with a live person across the net, and it reinforces many bad habits. The first time you get on a court with another player you might kind of suck at it. But the more you do it, the better you get. You still do drills to work on fitness and specific skills, and maybe even hit against the wall or a ball machine, but you don't get better at the game without playing the game.
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Not sure if this is to me
'"m not saying that you shouldn't practice the things you're practicing, but the actual process of playing this music is not simply a matter of stringing together blocks of muscle-memorized phrases. It's process of hearing/reacting/executing in real time, which is nigh on impossible to simulate on your own. The key is to not be afraid of failing. Just go play."
stringing together thing is what I was (and still) doing, true. It's a means to the end of hearing/reacting/executing in real time like you say. What I do now is reorganize those things into things I haven't played before, and I can do it in real time. What I never could do is compose lines based off small cells in real time. So I took big phrases and made small cells instead of making small cells with enclosures and theory. Plus, I have auto pilot stuff if needed.
I say all the time here I don't go to jams/gigs etc, but it's not like I don't ever play with other guitarists at each other's houses. True, I am a couch plucker...but I jam at least enough to know how
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It was a response to the OP, not directed to you. Originally Posted by joe2758
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To improve, you need to get out and play with others.
But, it's only a hobby, so do whatever you enjoy doing.
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These days I feel focussed listening is probably worth as much as much to me as actual instrumental practice. It is a skill to be developed though. Originally Posted by CliffR
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(repost)
The constant bit of feedback I consistently got FOREVER from teachers and occasionally other players was that my time and feel weren't good. I started to get quite sick of hearing it and bit angry and hopeless. I went through all the stages of grief with it lol.
It seemed like such a mysterious, unmeasurable thing. I wasn't even perceiving it really. How could I know if I was doing it right? Advice has been generally, pretty vague. A lot of people can tell it doesn't swing but be at a loss as to why. Musicians (not teachers so much) kind of write off players with bad time - 'oh it can't be taught, you either have it or you don't.'
Now that IS demotivating.
But I did find that I can absolutely work on it. And needless to say, I'm not the only one with these sorts of issues - they are actually incredibly common, especially with guitar players. Over time I got a more detailed idea of what I needed to sort out. One better quality bit of advice from a teacher I got was - "work on the consistency of your (up)beat placement". It took me a while to unpack exactly what that meant, but over time, I have made improvements and I can now tell when it's not right, and why. And the depth of my perception and hearing improves all the time. It's a growing process.
So none of this comes as naturally to me as some of my 8 year old beginners. It's humbling.
It is hard on guitar. Horns play in section so they get a real experiential learning of how to place phrases together. Guitarists tend to be operating more on their own.
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I’ve never considered it work- it’s alway play. Has to be fun. A little frustration is ok, but if I’m not enjoying something I stop and move on. The most simple direct thing I’ve done is focus on ear training. Sing what others are doing sing what I hear in my head. Then, play what I can sing. Along with memorizing a whole bunch of tunes, that’s the sum of it all. I’ve never transcribed (writing) or more than short bits to get in my ears. I didn’t work on scales, arps or etudes. Don’t play arrangements. Didn’t study drop 2 or inverted drop 3 anything’s. Don’t know caged. Don’t bother most of the time even thing about what notes I’m playing.
Did I learn how to play good enough? Well, I’m still having fun and playing daily for near 60 years, so I’m ok with it.
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me playing only what I hear in my head
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Ability + work. Originally Posted by CliffR
Loving to play music and 'success' are two different things.Let's define success
You think that's the way?Lego brick approach - take small portions of phrases and string them together
Interesting, your posts. It's all about tricks and success, not dedicated, intelligent application which brings its own reward. One thing about application is you'll never know it till the fruits appear. One day you realise that you can do it and it's good.
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A friendly jam session is extremely forgiving. Originally Posted by CliffR
My definition of success (improvisation) is when it is worthy for my own ears.
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I have a clear impression of what a good jazz guitarist of a certain style is supposed to sound like. A certain kind of melodicism, harmonic complexity, rhythm and ample chops. I've never been able to do it. I won't list the ways I've tried. Originally Posted by CliffR
On a good day, though, I can imagine a line and play it. And, then extend it or start a new line, hopefully in a way that builds. I'm okay with it and some people like it well enough to hire me. But, with regard to getting that classic sound, I've given up.
So, what's good enough? Just that you like what you play? Or do other people have to like it so you get at least n calls for gigs per month? Or what?
And, it's hard to even evaluate what you play. If you play a well-practiced lick perfectly and the audience goes crazy, you may already be so sick of that lick that you hate yourself for playing it.
My summary: you asked a tough question.
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I agree with this. Originally Posted by emanresu
To me, satisfactory playing is where you can have the rhythm, harmony, and melody organized well in reference to the form, and you can combine all 3 for them to animate throughout. To me that's where it goes from approximating music to presentable music.
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There is no “right way”. Go practice. A LOT!
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And... it's a question that comes up over and over ... my $0.02 is that there's no shortcut. Playing jazz requires developing a complex set of interconnected skills well enough to execute them in real time. There's no "do X for a year and you're there" shortcut. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Imagine if someone asked "how do I get good at brain surgery?" You're just not gonna develop that skill set in a year. Same with playing jazz at a high level. You can do everything that's been mentioned in this thread ... and more... for a long time. In order to do that, you have to really want it and, as Mark has suggested, the process of developing that skill set has to be enjoyable for you on some level. If it's not fun, you won't put in years of study and practice.
That said, everyone has a different learning style and journey as a musician. For me, a university music degree (in jazz performance), private lessons with excellent teachers, and a LOT of hard work was a great way to fill in the gaps in my musicianship. I'm surprised at all the dissing of jazz education on this board, but perhaps I lucked out and had a good experience. If I had it to do all over again, I'd take that route again in a heartbeat.
If a uni program is not suitable for you (it's great if you are young, not so great if you have kids, a mortgage, a full-time day gig, etc) the next best thing is private lessons with a competent jazz guitarist. Easily half of my skill set came from private lessons that were a part of my uni studies - and a lot of practice to learn to execute what I was shown. Thanks to the Internet, you are no longer limited to studying with the best player in your hometown - you can study online with world-class players. So if you really want to find out how the pros do it... you can ask them. They are a click away.
In the end, though, it's up to you to teach yourself to do what you've been shown.
EDIT: Perhaps the unifying feature of 90% of the advice posted thus far is "interaction with musicians that are better than you." Whether via private lessons, jam sessions, formal study, transcribing from records - all of these activities offer opportunity to calibrate and refine your skills - i.e. to "get better" or "become less bad" - in some way.
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