Anyone else experience this?

[CliffR]

So, I'm not looking for advice, or reassurance. I'm just interested to know if this is a common experience, or what others' experiences might be.

This is certainly not the first time this has happened to me. Last night I recorded a couple of improv takes over the tune I'm currently working on, Sunny Side Of The Street. The first was not great, but I was really pleased with the second. I made the changes - mostly - felt I had some motivic development, and even matched the way the intensity of the backing track changed throughout the song. Flushed with success, I was all ready to post it. But then I thought, wait, keep your powder dry; practice it more and you can make an even better recording. Well, thankfully I did choose not to post it. This morning, I listened back to it, and I could hear all the hesitancy, bad timing, bum notes etc etc. More and more I'm beginning to think I'm just not cut out for this hobby! I mean, I do feel like I'm continually improving. I can't remember the last time I felt like I'd hit a plateau. But as an old friend used to say, taste always exceeds technique. The more I grow, the more critical I become of what I can do.

How do you folks experience this?

[emanresu]

Yeah, the hesitation might be 50% of the reason why it doesn't "sound" good.
I have very little talent in this matter, and the constant sucky outcome of a solo that was ok note-wise started to annoy me so much.
Enough to do something about it.

[Sigmund451]

Try not to get caught up in the angst of that critical/improvment cycle.
Its part of the arts in general.

Its a catch 22. If you are not critical you dont improve.

Try to find some time to enjoy your successes....even if short lived its important.

Possibly record a little less often or when you do dont listen back in a rush. If you felt like you did part of it well be happy (for at least a few hours)

You already know you are going to pick it apart when you listen so wait until you feel in a position to take a beating

[Alter]

That's actually a good sign. You become a better listener, are able to hear weaknesses, then you improve them!

I don't think this ever goes away. Sonny Rollins was always unhappy about his records, he would say "nothing is happening".. I think it's very beneficial both to be able to see these weak areas, and also to have an ego that can accept them and work with them.

[CliffR]

I do think the hesitation is the single worst thing. It causes bad tone and timing issues. Part of it is just about learning, but I'm quite an anxious person by nature, so I'm thinking some of just won't go away.

I'm actually listening to the Sonny Rollins solo on this song now. What a brilliant piece of music!

And yeah, in a sense what I recorded was a success. It's probably the first time I made it through close to tempo without looking at the chord chart or getting lost in the changes. So, it's a start .

[grahambop]

The more I grow, the more critical I become of what I can do.

Don’t worry, this feeling never goes away (in my experience anyway). Without it, I don’t think we can improve.

Recording yourself is very helpful I think. You can enjoy the good bits, and work on the weak parts.

[CliffR]

Don’t worry, this feeling never goes away (in my experience anyway). Without it, I don’t think we can improve.

Recording yourself is very helpful I think. You can enjoy the good bits, and work on the weak parts.

Good point - I should listen to it in a constructively critical way.

[grahambop]

As it happens, I’ve been reading the Sonny Rollins notebooks (which I got on kindle) and he’s often criticising his own bad habits, fingering technique, breathing, posture, staying focused on one practice task and not getting distracted into other areas, etc.

Encouraging to see that the giants have the same problems as us!

[CliffR]

As it happens, I’ve been reading the Sonny Rollins notebooks (which I got on kindle) and he’s often criticising his own bad habits, fingering technique, breathing, posture, staying focused on one practice task and not getting distracted into other areas, etc.

Encouraging to see that the giants have the same problems as us!

There's a very good documentary about him. I think I saw it on BBC iPlayer, but that was some time ago. Worth seeking out if you haven't seen it.

[ragman1]

Cliff -

I know you don't like me but put up with it anyway :-)

First, the state of mind you listen to what you do isn't the same as when you played it. Also, the state of the listening mind can change a great deal depending on your mood and circumstances. How you hear it in the morning can change dramatically to how you hear it in the evening, or after work, or after a walk, or after a bath, and so on.

That's first. It's very easy after playing it, focussing on it, to listen and judge in the same frame of mind. Even then sometimes you'll be very pleased with it, other times your instinct is to throw it out there and then.

So the whole thing is very relative. It's one thing to acknowledge that intellectually but another to realise there's probably no real control over how you hear it. So the upshot is don't be too quick to judge it, positively or negatively.

But that's just you. The same applies to anybody else who listens to it. There are people who love certain things and people who distinctly loathe the same things. There's very little we can do about it.

Ultimately anything you do can only pass your own test. If you, having listened to something you did, like it, think it's good, then keep it. It doesn't matter what anybody else says and if you depend on what others say you'll be lost.

You know how many takes of a famous tune can be published even on a single album. Or how many takes are behind any single version. Wes, particularly, did take after take on some of his stuff. Monk took 25 takes on his track Brilliant Corners. Bill Evans, Miles, Coltrane, all the same.

Some film directors insist on extreme multiple takes of the same scene. Scripts are constantly being re-written even while the movie's being filmed. Authors write and rewrite and rewrite. Painters do the same. Most creative types are never satisfied with what they do. It's normal. Even years after they cringe at the results and some refuse to watch, listen, or look at what they did even years ago.

What I'm saying is it's all part of the process. Nothing much you can do.

[GuyBoden]

Don't worry Cliff, you're not as bad as me, on and off I've been trying to play Jazz since the early 1980's, I've had lots of lessons, lots of workshops with Jazz masters. But, I'm still embarrassingly bad at playing Jazz.

I still persevere, because I enormously enjoy listening and playing Jazz, whatever my level of ability.

Currently, I'm listening to "How Long Blues" Count Basie small group 1942.

[ragman1]

Sorry, I've a lot to say on this, haven't I?

Personally, I have only a general view of what I'm going to do on a tune. Then I just do it. If it goes belly up because I'm not in the right frame of mind then fair enough, I do it again later.

But what many people do is plot out their solos. That is, they establish very firm ideas of what to play and when. Then they try to match what they play to their ideas... and usually fail, requiring doing it again and again. It's obvious why, because there's no creative flow when pre-formed ideas are dictating what you play. There's the inevitable frustration when what they play doesn't live up to the wonderful version in their heads. So they beat themselves up over it.

Solos have got to be spontaneous otherwise there'll always be this schism between the concept and the reality. You may need some concept but generally the results will be far better if you simply let yourself go and play it as you feel it. Go up when you want to go up, pause when you want to pause, speed up when you want to speed up, and so on.

Pre-set formulas dominating what should be natural, flowing playing are a curse. You can hear it in some peoples' solos. You can hear them thinking 'This is where I put in this lick. This is where I do this triplet'.

Don't do it, it ain't natural. Learn to let go.

[CliffR]

Cliff -

I know you don't like me but put up with it anyway :-)

First, the state of mind you listen to what you do isn't the same as when you played it. Also, the state of the listening mind can change a great deal depending on your mood and circumstances. How you hear it in the morning can change dramatically to how you hear it in the evening, or after work, or after a walk, or after a bath, and so on.

That's first. It's very easy after playing it, focussing on it, to listen and judge in the same frame of mind. Even then sometimes you'll be very pleased with it, other times your instinct is to throw it out there and then.

So the whole thing is very relative. It's one thing to acknowledge that intellectually but another to realise there's probably no real control over how you hear it. So the upshot is don't be too quick to judge it, positively or negatively.

But that's just you. The same applies to anybody else who listens to it. There are people who love certain things and people who distinctly loathe the same things. There's very little we can do about it.

Ultimately anything you do can only pass your own test. If you, having listened to something you did, like it, think it's good, then keep it. It doesn't matter what anybody else says and if you depend on what others say you'll be lost.

You know how many takes of a famous tune can be published even on a single album. Or how many takes are behind any single version. Wes, particularly, did take after take on some of his stuff. Monk took 25 takes on his track Brilliant Corners. Bill Evans, Miles, Coltrane, all the same.

Some film directors insist on extreme multiple takes of the same scene. Scripts are constantly being re-written even while the movie's being filmed. Authors write and rewrite and rewrite. Painters do the same. Most creative types are never satisfied with what they do. It's normal. Even years after they cringe at the results and some refuse to watch, listen, or look at what they did even years ago.

What I'm saying is it's all part of the process. Nothing much you can do.

Dislike is a bit strong. We had a perfectly decent conversation about movies recently. And yeah, you make a good point here.

[CliffR]

But, I'm still embarrassingly bad at playing Jazz.

I certainly wouldn't say that. You acquit yourself decently in those jams you post.

[James W]

Sorry, I've a lot to say on this, haven't I?

Personally, I have only a general view of what I'm going to do on a tune. Then I just do it. If it goes belly up because I'm not in the right frame of mind then fair enough, I do it again later.

But what many people do is plot out their solos. That is, they establish very firm ideas of what to play and when. Then they try to match what they play to their ideas... and usually fail, requiring doing it again and again. It's obvious why, because there's no creative flow when pre-formed ideas are dictating what you play. There's the inevitable frustration when what they play doesn't live up to the wonderful version in their heads. So they beat themselves up over it.

Solos have got to be spontaneous otherwise there'll always be this schism between the concept and the reality. You may need some concept but generally the results will be far better if you simply let yourself go and play it as you feel it. Go up when you want to go up, pause when you want to pause, speed up when you want to speed up, and so on.

Pre-set formulas dominating what should be natural, flowing playing are a curse. You can hear it in some peoples' solos. You can hear them thinking 'This is where I put in this lick. This is where I do this triplet'.

Don't do it, it ain't natural. Learn to let go.

No offense but I wouldn't take your advice if I wanted to sound idiomatic - that is to say, like actual jazz. And also, using pre-set formulas is not the antithesis of flowing playing.

[GuyBoden]

I certainly wouldn't say that. You acquit yourself decently in those jams you post.

Cliff, I've been trying to play Jazz for 45 years.

Considering you've not been playing Jazz very long, you're playing very well.