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  1. #401

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    Okay, I was hoping I could get some feedback of the first A and B part on Ornithology, and my chord choice? I just want to know if I am thinking about this correctly. There are several different alternatives, of course. But I got to take this vanilla.


    So Ornithology:

    G^7 G^7 G-7 C7
    F^7 F^7 F-7 Bb7
    Eb^7 Aø7 D7 G-7 D7b9
    B-7 E7 A-7 D7


    Ornithology Barry Harris sixth chords
    G6 G6 G-6 G-6
    F6 F6 F-6 F-6
    Eb6 A-6 G-6 A-6
    B-6 C6 A-6 A-6


    So how did I arrive on the chords? First of all I have read that Barry is not very fond on using a II in a II-V, he says just play the V, like many people do. Also, since the tempo is quite high, I gotta keep it simple.

    Why G-6 over a C7? Because G-6 = G Bb D E, C7 is C E G Bb. The same goes for the other II-V situations. For example F-6 over F-7 to Bb7.

    F-7 = F Ab C D Bb7 = Bb D F Ab. This gives a nice 9 like sound, (Bb) D F Ab C.

    E7 is not in the key of Gmaj, so I get the II chord in B major, like I just explained above. So C6.


    Now you could take this one further step, and think of all the minor chords as major chords. So G-6 = Eb6, right?

    My last question would be how do you use the dim chords, when doing all this chord substitutions? For example when I play G-6 over C7, can I use all the G-6 dim chords? Or do you just use all the appropriate Dim chords from the original 6 dim scale? So if we were in C6, I would use all the C6 dim chords, for example Bdim?


    Another II-V-I approach would be:
    D-7-G7-C^7 = F6 Bdim C6

    For minor the exact same, just replace F6 and C6 with F-6 and C-6? I do feel a little bit of the purpose is lost if I change to two different 6dim scales in a II-V-I over 2 bars though. Can't make a lot of movement then.
    Last edited by znerken; 11-27-2018 at 09:58 AM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #402

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    G-7 =/= G-6
    G-7 == BbMaj6

  4. #403

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    G-7 =/= G-6
    G-7 == BbMaj6
    So never use minor6?

  5. #404

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken View Post
    So never use minor6?
    Barry Harris 101 approach would be minor6 is the related min7b5.
    A-6 == F#-7b5

  6. #405

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Barry Harris 101 approach would be minor6 is the related min7b5.
    Oh, nice. So minor is for 7b5. and for minor7 chords use relative major6 dim scale. So for D-7 C7 F^7 use Bb6 Edim F6?

  7. #406

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken View Post
    Oh, nice. So minor is for 7b5. and for minor7 chords use relative major6 dim scale. So for D-7 C7 F^7 use F6 Edim F6?
    I am not saying you can't substitute A-6 for A-7 in general. Of course you can (in general) but if you're trying figure out which BH 6 diminished chord scales to use and if you're faced with:
    A-7 D7 GMaj7 and if you treat A-7 as A-6 than you are setting yourself up for A minor 6 diminished (chord) scale. Which alternates between dim and half dim inversions (in the more standard view).
    So for A-7, C6 will give you the right 6 dim chord scale.

  8. #407

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Yes. I am not saying you can't substitute A-6 for A-7 in general. Of course you can (in general) but if you're trying figure out which BH 6 diminished chord scales to use and if you're faced with:
    A-7 D7 GMaj7 and if you treat A-7 as A-6 than you are setting yourself up for A minor 6 diminished (chord) scale. Which alternates between dim and half dim inversions (in the more standard view).
    So for A-7, C6 will give you the right 6 dim chord scale.
    Thank you! Now for ignoring the II and just staying in G6 and the dim chords in that scale in a II-V-I, does he do that? According to what I’ve seen on YouTube he don’t think of II, but focus on the V?

  9. #408

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken View Post
    Thank you! Now for ignoring the II and just staying in G6 and the dim chords in that scale in a II-V-I, does he do that? According to what I’ve seen on YouTube he don’t think of II, but focus on the V?
    Of course you play both II and V because your question is not about soloing, your question is about comping, right?
    Rhythm section DOES play II and V, which is what the 6 dim scales (the scale of chords part) are concerned with. When you solo you just play V.

  10. #409

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Of course you play both II and V because your question is not about soloing, your question is about comping, right?
    Rhythm section DOES play II and V, which is what the 6 dim scales (the scale of chords part) are concerned with. When you solo you just play V.
    Of course, this was a great argument. Thanks!

    So one last question, when you play a II-V, and you play the relevant major on that II. You can always use all the dim chords in that relevant major6dim scale right?


    So let's say we are in F major:
    G-7 C7 F^7 use Bb6 Edim F6


    So when I play that Bb6 dim scale chords, I can throw in all those dim chords, right?



    Let's say we are in a VI-II-V-I:
    Dmin-Gmin-C7-Fmaj

    l F6 l Bb6 l Edim l F6 l (correct)?


    You can for each bar, play the major scale and its dim chords? So for F6, I could play F6-Gdim-F6 then for Bb6 Bb6-Cdim-Bb6. Right?

  11. #410

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken View Post
    According to what I’ve seen on YouTube he don’t think of II, but focus on the V?
    If memory serves I believe I've heard him say that he doesn't even believe in the II so I take that as believing for him, the II is actually a IV6 with the 6 in the base.

    (After all this I don't see Autumn Leaves as a minor song but read it as written in G6.)
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  12. #411

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken View Post
    After watching the comping videos on his channel, I can't get that sound out of my ear. I want to put this in my toolbox. So my question, how would someone who knows drop 2 and 3 chords, related to 7 chords start on this? Just learn all the voicings in the Barry Harris Harmonic method for guitar, as a first step?


    So basically just start with this, then go to the next string sets when you got it

    Attachment 57746
    You’ve posted in a couple of different threads, so I’m not sure what question you are asking on this one. Once a thread is released in the wild, the OP loses control of it. However, this thread was supposed to be specifically about Chris’ YouTube channel. There is a thread specifically about Alan Kingstone’s book, and a thread generally about Barry Harris’ methodology.

    That said, I think it is fair to say that learning to harmonize/re-harmonize isn’t the same thing as learning to comp. I believe you may be mixing up the two.

    Comping is a specific skill that is very situation specific. Who are you comping for? Guitar? Horns? Singer? Do you have a bass player? A piano? Drums? In early swing jazz, band leaders considered guitars to be closer to drums than pianos, if that tell you anything about comping.

    Most Realbook charts already are harmonized pretty densely. You don’t necessarily have to know anything about how to harmonize to comp. You can just play what is on the page. The art of comping is to know how to be in the groove, how to play dynamically to support the melodic player not overshadow her, to know which voices to play and which to omit, and to know when to add an embellishment and when to be sparse.

    Learning how to harmonize/re-harmonize is exciting and fun. It is indispensable if you are trying to create a new arrangement, for example turning a show tune into a solo guitar piece. It is also necessary if you are so comfortable with the Realbook version it has become boring to you and you want to spice it up and challenge your audiences and band mates.

    But re-harmonizing a tune and comping on it are not the same thing. They are different skills for different, if complimentary, tasks. I tend to be like the puppy who sees a squirrel every 10 yards, so I empathize with anyone who jumps from one topic to the next. If that’s you too, no worries. But I just wanted to makes sure you understood that this harmonizing theory isn’t likely to help much with your comping.


    EDIT: I should add that I am saying all this as a LOUSY comper, but half way decent at arranging for solo guitar. But that is because that is what I play. I rarely play with other musicians. When I do, I am always embarrassed because I don’t comp well despite being able to re-harmonize. So I know what it takes to comp, I just don’t have much call for giving it the time and respect it needs.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Last edited by rlrhett; 11-27-2018 at 05:48 PM.

  13. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1 View Post
    If memory serves I believe I've heard him say that he doesn't even believe in the II so I take that as believing for him, the II is actually a IV6 with the 6 in the base.

    (After all this I don't see Autumn Leaves as a minor song but read it as written in G6.)
    i’d disagree that he doesn’t believe in a ii, and that Autumn Leaves isn’t minor
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  14. #413

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    I’m sorry for hijacking the thread. Chris’ video are very helpful, so I ended up in this thread.


    Well according to what I have read on Barry Harris, the harmonization method is intended to be used on comping behind a soloist as well. Here’s a screen shot from Issue 1.0 - The Barry Harris approach to Improvised Lines & Harmony: An Introduction




    I am not the right person to define comping, but of course chords are less important than groove, rhythm, staying out of the soloist etc. Still, without chords there are no comping?

    What does the other Barry Harris approach users here do?

  15. #414

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    It’s not really my ‘default method’ for comping, though I do use it for adding in a bit more movement here and there. But it is useful when you have a tune with 2 or more bars on the same chord, moving around the 6/dim stuff on those bars puts some movement back into it.

  16. #415

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    i’d disagree that he doesn’t believe in a ii, and that Autumn Leaves isn’t minor
    I'm "jacking" your thread with this OT and don't mean to...the thread is an excellent idea and we should keep it up (hoping everyone is working their fingers off).

    I agree that we call AL a minor tune, I just "see" it on my instrument as G6 which makes it easier, for me, to transpose to other keys.

    I just see it as II-V-I-IV-VII-III7-I6 and have to credit studying BH with that one.
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  17. #416
    wilson, i agree woth your harmonic analysis on that one. i was concered that you might be treating the emin like a ii when it should be min6.

    as for the thread I gave up on it since i didnt have anyone following along, so it’s free for all now.

    But yeah Barry refers to the ii all the time, i think his thing is people give it too much weight. but it can be more than just filler, it can be a destination.

    im watching a video right now and he says a ii v is just a 4 3 suspension.

    really we need to be able to think all kind of ways.
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  18. #417

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    Bebop trousers are go

  19. #418

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken View Post
    I’m sorry for hijacking the thread. Chris’ video are very helpful, so I ended up in this thread.


    Well according to what I have read on Barry Harris, the harmonization method is intended to be used on comping behind a soloist as well. Here’s a screen shot from Issue 1.0 - The Barry Harris approach to Improvised Lines & Harmony: An Introduction




    I am not the right person to define comping, but of course chords are less important than groove, rhythm, staying out of the soloist etc. Still, without chords there are no comping?

    What does the other Barry Harris approach users here do?
    Here's a general response to the questions on the forum: chill out, music is not engineering.

    Jazz is full of shades of grey. You also find contradictions between teachers, but also common themes. you will even find good players here who contradict your teacher, but that doesn't mean your teacher, or they are wrong - it's just a point of view. People make use of what they find helpful.

    But the advice 'focus on rhythm' is based on the tendency for jazz guitarists to get super obsessed with voicings, so they can play all of their drop voicings and so on, but not actually be able accompany another player with them. Basically, in order to comp you need resources, so you need some voicings.

    But if don't know any voicings, 'learn some voicings' is a good piece of advice. TBH the advice, 'focus on rhythm' does not preclude learning some voicings either, just not to get hung up on them to the expense of everything else.

    This doesn't mean you need a super methodical harmonic language. It means you need some voicings you like, and you need to know how to be able to harmonise a simple lead-line with them, which is one reason why its great to work on chord melody.

    You can (and probably should) get used to working on systematic voicings as a route to fretboard mapping, but this doesn't necessarily relate to comping in the heat of the musical moment.

    Take the basic jazz 101 chord grips and work with those for a bit, getting used to comping with them. If you don't know those, you need to learn them. Reg's advice on the other forum is basically what I would say to a student.

  20. #419

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Here's a general response to the questions on the forum: chill out, music is not engineering.

    Jazz is full of shades of grey. You also find contradictions between teachers, but also common themes. you will even find good players here who contradict your teacher, but that doesn't mean your teacher, or they are wrong - it's just a point of view. People make use of what they find helpful.

    But the advice 'focus on rhythm' is based on the tendency for jazz guitarists to get super obsessed with voicings, so they can play all of their drop voicings and so on, but not actually be able accompany another player with them. Basically, in order to comp you need resources, so you need some voicings.

    But if don't know any voicings, 'learn some voicings' is a good piece of advice. TBH the advice, 'focus on rhythm' does not preclude learning some voicings either, just not to get hung up on them to the expense of everything else.

    This doesn't mean you need a super methodical harmonic language. It means you need some voicings you like, and you need to know how to be able to harmonise a simple lead-line with them, which is one reason why its great to work on chord melody.

    You can (and probably should) get used to working on systematic voicings as a route to fretboard mapping, but this doesn't necessarily relate to comping in the heat of the musical moment.

    Take the basic jazz 101 chord grips and work with those for a bit, getting used to comping with them. If you don't know those, you need to learn them. Reg's advice on the other forum is basically what I would say to a student.
    What a nice well thought through post. You know I thought a little about this today, and if I were to define the two main problems with my comping, I would guess it often can be related to rhythm and feel, and chord voicings. Not that you need tons of advanced voicings, but from what I’ve gathered, professionals often comp “improv”. I tried that a little today, and I often need to pause and figure out which voicing I can use on the next chord. I know the voicings(I used drop2 today), but this is as you say lack of hours with them on the fretboard. Therefore I concluded that a good exercise is to play through my current tune every day with random drop2 chords for example, if that’s your thing. Make up silly rules like only use middle string set etc. This is important to build vocabulary, and you can do it with famous rhythms, for example Charleston, to make the exercise even better.

    You should play your chord voicings so much that they are like writing on a keyboard. I can do that upside down while doing something else and not miss a word :-)

    So I am going to practice drop 2 and 3 even more, but this time, on tunes.

  21. #420

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    Is the second scale example for G7 the "correct" one?


    Cmi.ScALES.2.pdf

    Cmi.SXALES.pdf

  22. #421
    no it should be Bb7 down to the 3rd of G
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  23. #422

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    And the ascending form of Bb7 (add B) played over G7 would be G Ab Bb B C D Eb F

    Is there a problem with the ascending form starting on the root G played up to the 7th?
    (That's what I have in example #1) again G Ab Bb B C D Eb F

    But, for learning purposes must it is start on Bb (#9) and descend to the B (3rd)?

  24. #423
    I’m not sure about the scale you have derived, it looks interesting.

    Barry would have you play Ab down the Bb7 scale to the 3rd of G.

    reason being it perfectly represents the movement from Dhalf to G7.

    it’s not one scale, it’s one scale going down to land on the first note of a new scale

    we are “running scales into each other” as he says
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  25. #424

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    Thanks you for your help and patience. I get the ‘seven down to the third’ scale.
    But I am confused about how to present the ascending scale drill in the second measure of the attached pdf. How would Harris teach the ascending scale drill for measure 2 ?

    Please take a look at the following 3 examples. How should the ascending form be spelled?

    pdf examples:
    Cmi.ScALES.2various.pdf
    Studied privately with Mark Levine from 1986-1989 and with Barry Harris 1990-1992.

  26. #425

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    I am concluding the ascending scale form for practice over | D-7b5 | G7b9 | would simply be derived from the C harmonic minor scale notes. Play G Ab B C D Eb F . And half step rules may apply.

  27. #426
    i messed around and here is my best guess what he would do. disclaimer: i wouldnt call this a barry harris idea since i haven’t seen it.
    D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-B
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  28. #427
    not sure if it’s harmonic minor, kinda sounds like it, but i’m think Bb7 starting the 3rd to the 3rd of G
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  29. #428

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    It's odd that it is never shown. It's seems quite a basic concept, how to ascend the dominant scale for |D-7b5 | G7b9 | ascend continuously for 2 octaves...
    I think it should be C harmonic minor, starting on G root . The bebop scale form would add a F# to keep the G7 chord tones on the downbeats.
    Studied privately with Mark Levine from 1986-1989 and with Barry Harris 1990-1992.

  30. #429

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    Please consider this ascending descending scale form attached. I think it follows Barry Harris reasoning and the chord tones are all on the strong beats.


    Cmi.ScALES.2various.pdf
    Studied privately with Mark Levine from 1986-1989 and with Barry Harris 1990-1992.

  31. #430
    it’s all fine and good, but don’t call it a Barry Harris concept when it’s not. call it the rintin approach. Barry would shoot daggers at you if you said “5th mode of harmonic minor.” just sayin.

    you can do anything you want, but i would be bummed to see a beginner get mixed up with it.

    They are fine ideas
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  32. #431

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    How does Barry Harris scale ascend | D-7b5 | G7b9 | ?

  33. #432

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    Just do it how Barry says.

    There’s a reason for everything.

  34. #433

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    How does Barry Harris scale ascend | D-7b5 | G7b9 | ?
    didn’t Chris cover this in the episode about scales on first 2 chords of ‘what is this thing called love’?

    In your example it would be Bb7 up to its 7 then down to end on a B (the third of G).

    He covers it in the beginning here:


  35. #434

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    If you wanted to do that continuously ascending, I suppose you could keep going up on the Bb7, i.e. up through Bb, B, C, D, Eb, F.

    That would preserve the notes but in reverse. Not sure it’s really Barry’s way though, I’m not the expert but I thought the whole idea was to map these scales to the chords in one-octave chunks.

  36. #435

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    Thanks

    So, ascending for a single measure of |D-7b5 G7b9 | would be spelled with what individual notes?

    I am trying to get his ascending default scale for |G7b9 | and for |D-7b5 G7b9| (two beats per chord now)

  37. #436

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    I get the descending form, but the short form (one measure only) ascending is unclear.
    Look at the second example here, ascending for one measure

    Per BH ?

    Cmi.ScALES.3various.pdf
    Studied privately with Mark Levine from 1986-1989 and with Barry Harris 1990-1992.

  38. #437

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    I get the descending form, but the short form (one measure only) ascending is unclear.
    Look at the second example here, ascending for one measure

    Per BH ?

    Cmi.ScALES.3various.pdf
    Gotcha. Think it go either way. I'd probably play (on Dm7b5 G7b9) B C D Eb F Gb Ab

    But, it's just scale outlines. Usually we'd descend. It's not really something that comes up that much in my practice.

  39. #438
    nobody liked my idea?
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  40. #439

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Gotcha. Think it go either way. I'd probably play (on Dm7b5 G7b9) B C D Eb F Gb Ab

    But, it's just scale outlines. Usually we'd descend. It's not really something that comes up that much in my practice.
    More common to ascend on arpeggio or chord, descend on scale

  41. #440

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    nobody liked my idea?
    it’s the badger’s nadgers.

  42. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    it’s the badger’s nadgers.
    oi graham’s a cushty geeza i don’t care what they say about im
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  43. #442

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  44. #443

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    How does Barry Harris scale ascend | D-7b5 | G7b9 | ?
    As Joe intimated.


    Bb7 up to the seventh back down to the 3rd of G7.

    That's for a 2 bar phrase.

    For a 1 bar phrase

    Bb7 down from the 7th to the 3rd of G7.




    -------

    As per WILSON etal:


    Barry doesn't believe in the TWO when creating lines (just the Dominant Scale) but uses the TWO very much harmonically.

  45. #444

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    G7b9 in the key of C minor

    Going down:
    Ab G F Eb D C B (from the b9 to the 3rd, think Bb7)

    Going up
    B C D Eb F G Ab (from the 3rd, ascending form of above descending form)

    (from the root to 7th) G Ab B C D Eb F (= V mode of harmonic minor of C)
    Studied privately with Mark Levine from 1986-1989 and with Barry Harris 1990-1992.

  46. #445

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    I like that thinking!

    Barry's rhythm:

    2 Bar Phrase - Bb7 up to 7th, down to 3rd of G7

    1&2&3&4&1&2&3 (perhaps up the diminished and resolve)

    1 Bar Phrase - Bb7 - 7th down to 3rd of G7

    1&2&3&4 (perhaps up the diminished (triplet?) and resolve)

  47. #446

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    Please explain the advantage of thinking Bb7 scale when playing G7 b9 rather than seeing the G7 b9 scale in its own right.


  48. #447

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Please explain the advantage of thinking Bb7 when playing G7 b9 rather than seeing the G7 b9 scale in its own right.


    I'll do my best to recall what Barry says.

    The original progression is Dm7b5 / G7.

    Where is Dm7b5 found? Key of Eb. We think in terms of SEVENTH CHORDS : DOMINANTS.

    Dominant of Eb - Bb7

    So for Dm7b5 we play Bb7

    The Chord G7 is represented by its THIRD, B.

    Proceed with the 7,065,432 variations (diminished is one I like / Your scales will work here) from the 3rd of the dominant to resolve (likely) Cm (maybe) C.

  49. #448

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz View Post
    More common to ascend on arpeggio or chord, descend on scale
    BH has us practice V7 ascending from Root to 7th and descending from 7th to Root when the key is Major.
    Why does he not show it ascending and descending from the Root on V7b9 in minor keys? He seems to leave a gap there... I'm pretty sure he would play 5th mode of harmonic minor if he was pushed to explain Root to 7th on G7b9.
    Studied privately with Mark Levine from 1986-1989 and with Barry Harris 1990-1992.

  50. #449

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    You can see Parker playing exactly what BH suggest on the E-7b5 A7 bars:

    Things I learned from Barry Harris Study Group-1-312a153ef9-jpg

  51. #450

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    ......................................
    Why does he not show it ascending and descending from the Root on V7b9 in minor keys? He seems to leave a gap there... I'm pretty sure he would play 5th mode of harmonic minor if he was pushed to explain Root to 7th on G7b9.

    The great thing is we can still inquire.

    New York this Tuesday (unless he's in Italy already).
    Last edited by A. Kingstone; 11-28-2018 at 11:37 PM.