6 months into jazz - overwhelmed and not sure where to focus. Advice?

[pamosmusic]

Yes, and that's the essence of the problem.
You would have thought that by now the plectrum technique would be solidly codified, similar to the Classic technique.
It should be, but it's not.
That's largely because people have "bought" into a technique and by the time that they realize that it's flawed, it's "too late" for them to change - and they tell themselves it's "ok" because others use the same approach....Misery loves company.

So they give that virus to their students, even if they privately know all about the problems that the technique is going to give that student.

It's awful, and what's possibly more comical/worrying is that SO many don't even know about the flaws - or if they do, they aren't honest about it and pretend it's ok.

Lol … classical technique is codified.

Ask four classical teachers about rest stroke and free stroke and they’ll disabuse you of that notion.

And at this point, if you don’t turn out to be like … John Petrucci or something, then I very seriously doubt you’ve earned the level of confidence you’re projecting here about the technique of others.

[joe2758]

They didn't say they are good, just that they are absolutely repulsed at the gross incompetence of everyone else. The festering disease of poor technique insidiously encroaching on the future players of tomorrow. It really is quite sickening if you think about it

[jazzyfan]

Lol … classical technique is codified.

Ask four classical teachers about rest stroke and free stroke and they’ll disabuse you of that notion.

And at this point, if you don’t turn out to be like … John Petrucci or something, then I very seriously doubt you’ve earned the level of confidence you’re projecting here about the technique of others.

Nonsense.
There might be controversy re when to use free or rest or even if rest is necessary, but the actual techniques are codified. Whether you're a Carlevaro or not.
The hand positions/motions etc etc are codified.
You don't see the same thing in plectrum technique.
It's the reign of the amateur who starts out with something and mostly never changes from that.
If you look at CTC, you will see that the range of techniques is MASSIVE compared with the codified Classic.
Gypsy position is COMPLETELY different to Martino style which is completely different to floating style.
It's because the amateur arrives at various positions that can work for the narrow things that the person is then doing.
Woe betide the guy who later wants to do other things which his technique wont allow.
It's just nonsense that you're spouting and you won't admit it.

[pamosmusic]

Nonsense.
It's just nonsense that you're spouting and you won't admit it.

Freudian slip?

[jazzloverfat]

Pamos is right.

There are different schools within the "classical tradition" and each go with one technique over another so while you could be justified in saying something is correct and other things incorrect based on a particular school, there is no fixed universal system.
Segrovia, Paco de Lucia, David Russell, all have "incorrect" technique according to some. And yet they left a legacy behind.
Or take Hendrix, Clapton or Beck - "incorrect" technique by some.
Or Wes's thumb picking - unorthodox and hence "incorrect" by the standards of the day.
And don't even go into the classical world where most violinists, pianists or conductors have invariably been accused at one opoint of having the wrong technique.

Then every guitar teacher I've had(and i've ran through quite a few xD) ALL said that while technique matters up to a point, one should always adapt it to whatever it is comfortable to them.

Get the basics right, sure, but to be so fucking pedantic and pretentious about it is hilariously stupid.
Like in many other art related fields, I feel that all those that get so hang up on technique fail at either being able to express or understand the inherent artistry of a piece (be it a song, a painting, a photo, etc.)

But since u seem to be so set in your ways and like picking on the lowly amateurs @jazzyfan, let's see your great body of work and that amazing technique of yours.

imma be waiting

[James W]

Jazzyfan ought to take a look at the right hand techniques of Ida Presti, André Segovia and David Russell.

But previous comments of Jazzyfan make it clear he also has little understanding of plectrum technique.

[GuyBoden]

As we're mainly Hobby Jazz guitarists on this forum.

As a hobbyist, for me it's about learning a few songs.

Simple steps.

1.) Learn the song's Melody.

2.) Learn the song's chords.

3.) Then learn some improvision over the song. (At first, keep it simple. Maybe, using Chord tones.)

It's doesn't have to be good, but do try to enjoy yourself, it's a hobby.

But, if you want to progress faster, get a good Jazz teacher.

[James W]

As we're mainly Hobby Jazz guitarists on this forum.

As a hobbyist, for me it's about learning a few songs.

Simple steps.

1.) Learn the song's Melody.

2.) Learn the song's chords.

3.) Then learn some improvision over the song. (At first, keep it simple. Maybe, using Chord tones.)

It's doesn't have to be good, but do try to enjoy yourself, it's a hobby.

But, if you want to progress faster, get a good Jazz teacher.

I've mentioned this before, but don't professional jazz guitarists also enjoy themselves?

If so, why does the message of enjoying yourself because it's only a hobby appear like some sort of mantra in your posts?

Every pro is also a hobbyist. I don't know why you're so preoccupied with demarcating the two.

[GuyBoden]

I've mentioned this before, but don't professional jazz guitarists also enjoy themselves?

If so, why does the message of enjoying yourself because it's only a hobby appear like some sort of mantra in your posts?

Every pro is also a hobbyist. I don't know why you're so preoccupied with demarcating the two.

I think it's mostly Hobby Jazz guitarist on this forum, there are not many professionals.

"A hobby is a regular leisure activity done for pleasure rather than for financial gain."

[pamosmusic]

I've mentioned this before, but don't professional jazz guitarists also enjoy themselves?

No this is serious business.

[James W]

No this is serious business.

Lol.

[James W]

I think it's mostly Hobby Jazz guitarist on this forum, there are not many professionals.

What's your point?

[pamosmusic]

As we're mainly Hobby Jazz guitarists on this forum.

As a hobbyist, for me it's about learning a few songs.

Simple steps.

1.) Learn the song's Melody.

2.) Learn the song's chords.

3.) Then learn some improvision over the song. (At first, keep it simple. Maybe, using Chord tones.)

It's doesn't have to be good, but do try to enjoy yourself, it's a hobby.

But, if you want to progress faster, get a good Jazz teacher.

Id be less interested in the hobbyist fixation and more interested in how one learns those things.

How do you cook a meal?

Well we’re all amateur chefs here, so:

1. Make the appetizer.
2. Make the dinner.
3. Make the dessert — something simple, maybe with chocolate.

[pamosmusic]

Also for what it’s worth, I teach kids and my fifth grade jazz band sounds bad as hell (if I may be so bold). I am very demanding of the kids but they like me (mostly).

Anyway — it works out that way because *sounding good is fun.*

[joe2758]

There's as much difference in classical right hand technique as picking. There is no way Jazzyfan can be a part of that world to any real degree and hold that view. I could make as big of a list as the different picking techniques

[Christian Miller]

TBH I think 'professional jazz guitarist' in the strictest sense might not be a thing. Unless you are Pat Metheny. The vast majority of working jazz guitarists have other sources of work, usually stuff like teaching, session work and so on. We all have sandwich careers. Maybe if you are lucky you can get a gig teaching at a jazz school.

Another 30+% of being a musician is an office job. Emailing, contracts, invoices, a million little jobs that need to be done just like any other job.

Playing a set of originals or hip jazz tunes IS the fun part. OTOH practicing to get better at jazz - one of the things I like the most, so much so that when I get busy with gigs I get annoyed I don't have more time to do it.

So I think we are all hobbyists?

Anyone else agree?

[alltunes]

Back to the OP….Chris Whiteman has many YT lessons on Autumn Leaves. He really explores the tune from many angles…comping, soloing, chromatic enclosures, walking bass lines, shell voicings, etudes etc. His lessons are very well done in my opinion. I continue to learn from them. If you join his Patreon you can download all the TABs and notation.

You will have to learn the song in the key of Gm/Bb as that is the key most people actually play it in and the key Chris’ Autumn Leaves lessons are based on.

Nothing wrong with sticking to a tune and really developing it.

[Reg]

You need to warm up with something, technical studies work. Once you have a routine, it will always help you improve. The playing of songs, music will become much easier.

[joe2758]

TBH I think 'professional jazz guitarist' in the strictest sense might not be a thing. Unless you are Pat Metheny. The vast majority of working jazz guitarists have other sources of work, usually stuff like teaching, session work and so on. We all have sandwich careers. Maybe if you are lucky you can get a gig teaching at a jazz school.

Another 30+% of being a musician is an office job. Emailing, contracts, invoices, a million little jobs that need to be done just like any other job.

Playing a set of originals or hip jazz tunes IS the fun part. OTOH practicing to get better at jazz - one of the things I like the most, so much so that when I get busy with gigs I get annoyed I don't have more time to do it.

So I think we are all hobbyists?

Anyone else agree?

Well, you're living that life so certainly I can only add my outside perspective:

I'd say someone like you is a professional jazz guitarist. A professional jazz guitarist who teaches, a professional jazz guitarist who does the admin type work, a professional jazz guitarist who would prefer to have more time to practice etc

Plus part of the definition of hobbyist is "not for financial gain," which even the enjoyable gigs you do is to get paid innit?

[mr. beaumont]

How do you cook a meal?

Well we’re all amateur chefs here, so:

1. Make the appetizer.
2. Make the dinner.
3. Make the dessert — something simple, maybe with chocolate.

Probably more accurate in the actual learning of jazz would be dinner prep at my house

1. Make dessert, put in fridge
2. Go to market to get stuff for dinner
3. Marinate the chicken and make a salad dressing.
4. Go to the garden to get veggies for salad
5. Recieve phone call from 14 year old, asking if Ahmir and Henry can join us for dinner
6. Go back to market to frantically get 2 more chicken breasts.
7. Begin cooking, dog informs you she needs to be walked "right the fuck now or else."
8. Check jazzguitar.be while walking dog
9. Get chicken on grill, wife calls, traffic bad, can we eat at 7:30 instead of 7
10. 14 year old and buddies arrive at house eating French fries from a greasy bag
11. Suddenly remember dessert needs two more things done to it
12. 12 year old calls, says he's eating at Patrick's house because his mom "makes really good sloppy Joe's, you should ask her how she does it"
13. Get chicken off grill at 7:18pm just as wife arrives home.
14. 14 year old boys ravenously eat chicken before salad is even dressed.
15. 12 year old arrives home at 8pm, says "I'm hungry."


This is meant to be funny, but also, I think fitting...learning jazz is not linear...you're going to need to watch a few pots on the stove at the same time.

[joe2758]

hahaha great post, Jeff!

[joe2758]

Here's mine:
1. learn The Maillard Reaction
2. learn Protein Denaturation
3. learn Hydrocolloids and Gums
4. oops your chicken parm sucks

[James W]

So I think we are all hobbyists?

Anyone else agree?

Yes, I said exactly this in #208.

[AllanAllen]

TBH I think 'professional jazz guitarist' in the strictest sense might not be a thing. Unless you are Pat Metheny. The vast majority of working jazz guitarists have other sources of work, usually stuff like teaching, session work and so on. We all have sandwich careers. Maybe if you are lucky you can get a gig teaching at a jazz school.

Another 30+% of being a musician is an office job. Emailing, contracts, invoices, a million little jobs that need to be done just like any other job.

Playing a set of originals or hip jazz tunes IS the fun part. OTOH practicing to get better at jazz - one of the things I like the most, so much so that when I get busy with gigs I get annoyed I don't have more time to do it.

So I think we are all hobbyists?

Anyone else agree?

It is my opinion that a professional musician is one who acts professional on the gig. A hobbyist is taking 2 beers on stage, hitting the vape instead of pulling up the next tune and going to their car for 20 minutes on the 10 minute break.

The bar is LOW for pro jazz musician, because so many of them are socially... off planet.

The only thing I'd disagree with is, it's more like 60-70% non-musical tasks for me. I fish for gigs almost every day, I've sent hundreds of emails and often get my social media accounts flagged as spam from sending so many gig inquires. THAT is the grind, practicing scales and arpeggios over tunes is the fun part. Only, I don't do that if there's no gig to be sharp for. If there's no gig some week, I'm laying on the couch watching Humphrey Bogart movies and Survivor re-runs all night.

I'm still waiting for my phone to ring, but jazz guitar hired gun isn't something I've been able to get.

Guy is a very humble pro if you asked me. From his videos he's together on the gig, listening to the other musicians and he's not wearing jeans and a ripped Harley Davidson t-shirt.

[AllanAllen]

15. Clean up the kitchen, put dishes in dishwasher then finally sit down when 12 year old arrives home at 8pm, says "I'm hungry."

I added a missing bit from step 15, LOL