6 months into jazz - overwhelmed and not sure where to focus. Advice?

[GuyBoden]

So I think we are all hobbyists?

Anyone else agree?

When is a hobby not a hobby?

Since 2017, the HMRC does recognise hobbyists, if they don't exceed £1,000 in financial gain.

Anything over £1,000 and you're not a Hobbyist, according to the HMRC.

Edit: "A hobby is a regular leisure activity done for pleasure rather than for financial gain."

[AllanAllen]

Most American's cannot afford a $500 financial emergency. So I guess, in a way, we are all hobbyists.

[Reg]

Yea onezeho

Set up a schedule... send me a vid of you playing anything... and I'll suggest what your practice should look like to help get you headed in a better direction.

[JazzKatua]

Most American's cannot afford a $500 financial emergency. So I guess, in a way, we are all hobbyists.

Are there ANY Europeans on this forum?! Regarding its domain name .be even FCOL...

[rpjazzguitar]

TBH I think 'professional jazz guitarist' in the strictest sense might not be a thing. Unless you are Pat Metheny. The vast majority of working jazz guitarists have other sources of work, usually stuff like teaching, session work and so on. We all have sandwich careers. Maybe if you are lucky you can get a gig teaching at a jazz school.

Another 30+% of being a musician is an office job. Emailing, contracts, invoices, a million little jobs that need to be done just like any other job.

Playing a set of originals or hip jazz tunes IS the fun part. OTOH practicing to get better at jazz - one of the things I like the most, so much so that when I get busy with gigs I get annoyed I don't have more time to do it.

So I think we are all hobbyists?

Anyone else agree?

Threads tend to get long when there's a debate about the meaning of a term that has no widely accepted definition.

My idea of a professional jazz guitarist is somebody who can make a living with jazz guitar -- which could include fees for gigs, teaching, income from books, recordings or whatever. And, it would certainly include all the necessary administrative duties.

I don't make a strong distinction between a semi-pro and a hobbyist who plays the occasional gig.

I know a lot of pro players who are capable jazz musicians. All the local guys play commercial type gigs. One, who I believe is typical, laments having to play the same 60 tunes repeatedly. I know some well known players who make a real living playing jazz, but for them it's not an easy life because of the travel.

So, I don't think we're all hobbyists. The player who makes a real living by being good enough to get gigs and energetic enough to put up with the travel, administrative work and general headaches -- I think calling that person a hobbyist denies respect they've earned.

[rpjazzguitar]

I probably should ignore this theme about picking, but I'll say this much.

For me, it depends on how you want to sound. If you want Chuck Wayne's sound you aren't going to get it with Warren Nunes' approach to picking, and vice versa.

Since Wes' may be the most beloved jazz guitar sound, if you forced me to pick one so-called "correct" right hand technique, I'd have to go with the one that produces the best sound, which, IMO, is Wes.

So, now everybody who uses anything other than a thumb is wrong.

The idea that there's a correct, codified right hand technique for jazz seems to ignore the vast range of approaches which have made great music.

You have to accommodate, Charlie Christian's all downstrokes, Wes' thumb, Metheny's curled up thin pick, Chuck Wayne's tiny pick with sweeping, Warren Nunes' jackhammer alternating, Tuck Andress' treatise on his right hand technique, etc.

And, eventually, whatever you know about picking gets expressed through the way you want to sound. I'm not going to criticize Wes for being unable to sound like some other player.

[AllanAllen]

Are there ANY Europeans on this forum?! Regarding its domain name .be even FCOL...

Well, the guy I was replying to for one. Try not to be so triggered bro, it’s like blood in the water for us Americans.

[James W]

When is a hobby not a hobby?

Since 2017, the HMRC does recognise hobbyists, if they don't exceed £1,000 in financial gain.

Anything over £1,000 and you're not a Hobbyist, according to the HMRC.

Edit: "A hobby is a regular leisure activity done for pleasure rather than for financial gain."

The question is, should the pros be beset by anxiety and find playing jazz guitar a chore?

That is what your signature seems to imply.

[GuyBoden]

The question is, should the pros be beset by anxiety and find playing jazz guitar a chore?

I don't know anything about Pro players apart from their recordings.

I'm only a Hobby player.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back on topic, here is Reg's great Youtube channel:
Reg523 - YouTube Channel

Let's listen to Reg.

[James W]

I don't know anything about Pro players apart from their recordings.

Not true, I've seen you interact with pros countless times on this forum.

[starjasmine]

This is one’s quite well known I think

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don't forget Straight No Chaser

and Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun

[ragman1]

Are there ANY Europeans on this forum?! Regarding its domain name .be even FCOL...

The .be is for Belgium. Well, it's not Africa.

I've been around too much to label myself 'European' but I'm in the UK now. As for Europeans there are plenty. There are now, or have been at some time or another, people here from France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, Russia, Netherlands, Poland, Greece, and probably more that I can't remember.

As for the Americans, yes, I know they're a bloody nuisance, but we live with it :-)

I luv y'all, even Jeffery

[Christian Miller]

Threads tend to get long when there's a debate about the meaning of a term that has no widely accepted definition.

My idea of a professional jazz guitarist is somebody who can make a living with jazz guitar -- which could include fees for gigs, teaching, income from books, recordings or whatever. And, it would certainly include all the necessary administrative duties.

I don't make a strong distinction between a semi-pro and a hobbyist who plays the occasional gig.

I know a lot of pro players who are capable jazz musicians. All the local guys play commercial type gigs. One, who I believe is typical, laments having to play the same 60 tunes repeatedly. I know some well known players who make a real living playing jazz, but for them it's not an easy life because of the travel.

So, I don't think we're all hobbyists. The player who makes a real living by being good enough to get gigs and energetic enough to put up with the travel, administrative work and general headaches -- I think calling that person a hobbyist denies respect they've earned.

By your definition, the number of full time professional jazz guitarists is really vanishingly small. The gig does not exist.

Professional music means a sandwich career

I think the distinction is rather artificial. My work is 100% concerned with music so I count as a professional musician but I don’t look at people make a living doing different stuff as do fundamentally any different.

People get hung up on the pro/amateur thing. I think it’s unhelpful.


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[djg]

The question is, should the pros be beset by anxiety and find playing jazz guitar a chore?

it's not the playing that's the chore. you dont get paid for playing. you get paid to function in a professional way. you have to make compromises. trying to make a living with music is a compromise in the first place, trading security for doing the thing you love. and then you have to trade back some of that.

[Christian Miller]

it's not the playing that's the chore. you dont get paid for playing. you get paid to function in a professional way. you have to make compromises. trying to make a living with music is a compromise in the first place, trading security for doing the thing you love. and then you have to trade back some of that.

I think that’s what I was trying to say.

There’s a lot of soft skills involved and you have to be prepared to put up with the negative things in exchange for the positive aspects.


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[James W]

it's not the playing that's the chore. you dont get paid for playing. you get paid to function in a professional way. you have to make compromises. trying to make a living with music is a compromise in the first place, trading security for doing the thing you love. and then you have to trade back some of that.

To be clear, my question was directed at Guy. It was not a statement of what I think.

[AllanAllen]

People get hung up on the pro/amateur thing. I think it’s unhelpful.

There’s this idea on other forums, of a professional musician. This ideal pro sideman, gets up at 2pm, sheds until that nights gig, gets paid $400 cash plus tips, goes to a jam after and gets another handful of gigs. Goes home and back to bed.

You can decide for yourself if it’s a complete fantasy that these guys dreamed up. Or, how it used to be in the in the 1980’s.

Either way, it’s not how things are now.

[pamosmusic]

Or, how it used to be in the in the 1950s.

Either way, it’s not how things are now.

I fixed that for you

[joe2758]

There’s this idea on other forums, of a professional musician. This ideal pro sideman, gets up at 2pm, sheds until that nights gig, gets paid $400 cash plus tips, goes to a jam after and gets another handful of gigs. Goes home and back to bed.

You can decide for yourself if it’s a complete fantasy that these guys dreamed up. Or, how it used to be in the in the 1980’s.

Either way, it’s not how things are now.

Hard to believe people hold such a ridiculous view. I think there are more than a few people on this forum who could have pursued a full time career in music but chose to take a different path due to the obvious risks and difficulty in achieving a reliable and stable source of income.

Anyone who has that weird fantasy either has never considered going pro, has no experience with any sort of gigging, or is going to be sorely disappointed

It's a tradeoff, the most stable jobs are very often less fulfilling than being involved with music all day...whether it is promoting or teaching etc. Still beats a spreadsheet on team synergy or fixing toilets

[John A.]

By your definition, the number of full time professional jazz guitarists is really vanishingly small. The gig does not exist.

Professional music means a sandwich career

I think the distinction is rather artificial. My work is 100% concerned with music so I count as a professional musician but I don’t look at people make a living doing different stuff as do fundamentally any different.

People get hung up on the pro/amateur thing. I think it’s unhelpful.


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The way I see it, if your training and interest is in jazz guitar, you make a living in music (sandwich or otherwise subsidized, e.g., by a spouse), and regularly play jazz for money (via an elastic definition of "regularly"), you're a professional jazz guitarist. I haven't taken a census as to how many "professional jazz guitarists" there are, but I know a bunch. I don't see this as different from any other career in an age when most people rely on two (or more) incomes to maintain a decent standard of living.

But the words "professional", "hobbyist", "amateur" have connotations other than degree of income vs expense. So if you say someone is a hobbyist and not a professional, you're likely to be perceived as implying negative things about his/her seriousness and ability. Probably better to just say "it's really hard to make a living" and leave it at that.

[GuyBoden]

So if you say someone is a hobbyist and not a professional, you're likely to be perceived as implying negative things about his/her seriousness and ability.

Good post, that confirms that I'm definitely a Hobbyist.

[ragman1]

Guy, I'm probably about to put my foot in it. So what if you're a hobbyist? Most of us are in the sense we don't make a living from music. That doesn't mean very much because it depends on the attitude to the whole thing,.

But you repeating ad infinitum that you're 'only a hobbyist' is becoming tedious and a bit, how shall I put it, psychological? It's as though it's a shield you put up continually to protect yourself from what? Criticism?

No one is going to criticise you for only being at a certain level. We're all at a certain level. It's all self-evident anyway and the same for everybody here, not just you. Every time you say 'I'm only a hobbyist' it sounds like you're whining!

I'm sure if you saw it that way you'd stop. Then you could relax and get on with playing the guitar, which you obviously like to do, without fear of being judged.

Sorry, that's my twopence done with.

[AllanAllen]

Hard to believe people hold such a ridiculous view. I think there are more than a few people on this forum who could have pursued a full time career in music but chose to take a different path due to the obvious risks and difficulty in achieving a reliable and stable source of income.

Anyone who has that weird fantasy either has never considered going pro, has no experience with any sort of gigging, or is going to be sorely disappointed

It's a tradeoff, the most stable jobs are very often less fulfilling than being involved with music all day...whether it is promoting or teaching etc. Still beats a spreadsheet on team synergy or fixing toilets

Talkbass and TDPRI are full of guys dreaming of this life, or maybe wistful for the used to be of it all.

[joe2758]

Guy, I'm probably about to put my foot in it. So what if you're a hobbyist? Most of us are in the sense we don't make a living from music. That doesn't mean very much because it depends on the attitude to the whole thing,.

But you repeating ad infinitum that you're 'only a hobbyist' is becoming tedious and a bit, how shall I put it, psychological? It's as though it's a shield you put up continually to protect yourself from what? Criticism?

No one is going to criticise you for only being at a certain level. We're all at a certain level. It's all self-evident anyway and the same for everybody here, not just you. Every time you say 'I'm only a hobbyist' it sounds like you're whining!

I'm sure if you saw it that way you'd stop. Then you could relax and get on with playing the guitar, which you obviously like to do, without fear of being judged.

Sorry, that's my twopence done with.

I see your point here, but here's how I see it:

It is easy for musicians embarking on this long processes of learning jazz to get the idea a well rounded expertise is needed.

You have to be able to sight read, you have to be able to play with little preparation, you need to practice for different types of ensembles, you need to be able to transpose quickly, you need to be original and not just a copy cat, you can't take too long of an extended break or you will lose too much. you need to be able to play to a certain degree by ear. you have to transcribe. Professionals need that.

When it sank in for me that I will always be an amateur (it took longer than you might think), and stopped practicing stuff I didn't like or knew I'd never play...it was a huge relief. I mean when it REALLY hit.

I thought I had to transcribe, I hate it-- I just learn shit other people transcribed. Sue me. I can't solo on a tune at the drop of a hat...so? I don't know the delicate balance of playing with piano...don't care. I can't sight read fluently enough for it to sound right first or even second or 3rd try. Don't need to.

result: I made progress 10x as fast because I stopped trying to progress at what I'm supposed to do.

Maybe Guy is meaning something like "hey relax if you're a hobbyist just enjoy!"

I got burned out from practicing as an amateur...think about that...wtf? that's literally insane

[Christian Miller]

The way I see it, if your training and interest is in jazz guitar, you make a living in music (sandwich or otherwise subsidized, e.g., by a spouse), and regularly play jazz for money (via an elastic definition of "regularly"), you're a professional jazz guitarist. I haven't taken a census as to how many "professional jazz guitarists" there are, but I know a bunch. I don't see this as different from any other career in an age when most people rely on two (or more) incomes to maintain a decent standard of living.

But the words "professional", "hobbyist", "amateur" have connotations other than degree of income vs expense. So if you say someone is a hobbyist and not a professional, you're likely to be perceived as implying negative things about his/her seriousness and ability. Probably better to just say "it's really hard to make a living" and leave it at that.

I think it's a cheesy way of putting it, and I honestly think it's the self-styled 'hobbyists' who tend to get hung up this distinction.

The important divide is mindset, I think - am I really doing this thing, or am I looking for short cuts?

Unfortunately many of the products on offer represent short cuts. But I don't think the route to becoming a musician has anything to do with what you do for a living. It's a self fulfilling an enjoyable thing to do in its own right, provided people accept the journey being the fun bit, and stop worrying about the destination, because there is none.

So I think if we get that, we are all on the same path in various ways. I respect anyone who is on this path. Granted, I might not call all of them for a gig, but there's all sorts of reasons why I might call or not call someone for a gig. What someone does between the hours of 9-5 isn't so much of a factor.