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I saw this and thought, man he has some bold opinions. Then I thought, what would the actual counter arguments (to Christiaan) be? I'm not sure I have many!
I feel the majority here would agree mostly with Rhett?
Rules:
Only reply to a statement on the video and put the time on the video. Or quote it.
I'm still in my skeptical era, so yeah
https://www.youtube.com/live/lW-QrNO...ET5uG6ceA6QQPs
Edit: consider the source: He grew up learning strict classical violin and went pro, he was a pro audio engineer, Pro arranger (including for movies) graduated for upright jazz bass, has perfect pitch, teaches at university... so bear in mind he knows all this stuffLast edited by joe2758; Today at 02:53 PM.
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Today 02:30 PM
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Christiaan can play jazz on several instruments, Rhett makes gear videos.
Seems obvious to me
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Yeah, did you watch it? I'm just wondering because so many people seem to make the points on this forum that Rhett makes in the video..but I have not heard anything that could dispute Christiaan's comments.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
It's obvious to me, but I'm not sure you agree on his points based on what I see from you here. Hence my interestLast edited by joe2758; Today at 04:52 PM.
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Do this one weird trick to save 1.5 hours of your life! Don't watch "clickbait."
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Well it's interesting and not offensive, so I'm ok with it Originally Posted by starjasmine
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Why on earth would I watch an hour and a half of Christaan reacting to a Rhett Shull video? Originally Posted by joe2758
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At 5:36 someone in his chat says “for a lot of people learning notes in chords and scales is music theory” and he says “yes that’s true it is.”
So I would stop watching there.
You don’t need math at all in the real world and in fact I would recommend against learning any math at all — as long as you got up to like, pre Algebra.
Well … okay, that’s kind of math, no?
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i dunno boost your ego? lol Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I’d agree that learning music theory can be counter productive, beyond learning the notes in your chords and scales — which is music theory and takes most people a good year or so of study to really lock down.
I would not agree that it’s always counterproductive though. It comes and goes in phases even for people who are theory heads. I’m a big theory head and sometimes my practice is super cerebral and other times it’s not even a little bit. I’m in a not even a little bit phase right now.
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Yeah, there is a baseline level for sure.
As you know I am the proverbial "hyper-focused on ear training amd theory then realized he still couldn't play" guy.
Now that I am shedding, I know all the scales and arps the phrases come from, how they work etc without necessarily analyzing them.
But I just wonder..does that matter? It sounds the same. Although maybe I'd curious about how it all works. but then again I'd already know how to play. Maybe I wouldnt care to learn it..maybe I would
I just wonder if I started with Christiaan's approach in HS where I would be now.
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This my first major phase shift, and I'd be silly to think it's permanent..but I'll be on it as long as I'm making these huge strides in progress! Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I also don't have 90 minutes to listen to someone preaching the gospel of willful ignorance. I got ten minutes in and stopped after he contradicted himself for about the 20th time. "You should never study theory if you're a guitarist... is knowing the notes in the chord helpful? Yes, and some people call that theory- but you should never study theory. I use the root, 3rd, 5th..." "You'll notice I didn't mention scales, you shouldn't learn those..." WTF?
Do you need an advanced degree in music theory to play jazz- such as the various types of counterpoint, figured bass, etc.? No. There are plenty of examples in the history of jazz and jazz guitar to prove that point.
Do you need to understand how chords are constructed and how they interact with scales? Yes. Do you need to understand what a key is and how they work? Yes. Do you need to understand the chord scale for all 12 keys? Yes. Do you need to understand the essence of functional harmony (ii-V-I, I-vi-ii-V-I, etc.)? Yes. Do you need to understand chord-scale theory (which should probably be taught as chord-mode theory)? It would probably help as a way to organize things. Do you need to understand voice leading? Oh yeah.
Should you be thinking about theory when playing jazz? No.
Should you learn melodies to every song you play? Yes. Should you learn them in all 12 keys? Yes. Should you learn the words if there are any? Yes- it will help you play the melody, it will help you play with meaning and emotion suitable to the song. (I am a hypocrite and don't do these things anywhere near enough). Do you need extensive theory to do this? No.
Should you treat the guitar as a musical instrument that is somehow different from every other musical instrument- that guitarists don't need theory but it's OK for saxophonists and pianists? Hell no. Music theory has to be adapted to any instrument- it is closely tied to the piano and other instruments have their quirks which have to be accounted for.
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Do you need theory?
Describe exactly what you mean by theory, and what you don't mean by it, and I'll tell you whether it's necessary or not.
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It is willful ignorance, but he always makes clear (maybe not in this vid) everything he teaches is to make the student good enough to play in jams as soon as possible.
Then learn whatever. I'm not the only one who focused on learning first to get a "head start" and then it didn't.
about the tunes in all 12 keys for example...why not learn them in 1 or 2 and learn more tunes? Do you KNOW youre going to be playing with singers who pick strange keys with no notice and expect you to just do it easily? I'm not
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Sorry, I never watched the video. I'm not terribly interested in videos. I thought your thread title was a question you yourself were asking.
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I know for myself that I know more than I need, so it's not a problem. I just wonder how much of it is actually helpful. But, I don't teach either so it doesn't really matter. Just interesting. Originally Posted by ragman1
For example I see the beginner threads and wonder about some of the advice, but it's not really any of my business.
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you couldnt pay me to watch this. learn a tune. play a solo. if it stinks learn a few licks from someone better. rinse and repeat. how hard can it be? use the dick onstenk method and you'd be playing for real within a year. everything else will reveal itself in the process. why hang at the mouths of these youtubers? the day only has 24 hours. cheers. Originally Posted by joe2758
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Yes, you need music theory. Playing music successfully is composed of 4 topics:
Ear
Theory
Technique
Creativity
95-99% of musicians will suck if they refuse music theory, and the ones who get competent just end up using very low level theory principles anyway.
Yes there are obviously SOME cases where people just learn aurally and get good, but those are fringe cases. A general rule is you need theory to play music, along with the other topics.
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I didn't want to just parrot Christiaan's points, so I posted the video. The video doesn't interest people.
I knew people would get fired up, but I wanted to see what the fired ip people would actually say to his actual points.
Not really interested in the predictable answers based on the title of the thread
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We managed to make it not quite four years without this discussion recurring. I refer you to the canonical thread, started by yours truly as a JOKE that nonetheless became a 1,072-post "thing."
Theory vs. playing by ear
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alright jeese ill just go fuck myself
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I'd respond to the points if I knew what they were. I can't reasonably sift them out of a 90 minute video on my free time like it's a college course. Originally Posted by joe2758
If you know of some points you want to discuss, then list them and timestamp them.
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make your own points then. Originally Posted by joe2758
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Not the intent of my post. Pls don't take it personally. Originally Posted by joe2758
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no one replied to them... Originally Posted by djg
If I was trying to make an argument I would make an itemized list, but I'm not.
This isn't "YOU DON'T NEED THEORY CHANGE MY MIND"
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Do you need theory?
Today, 02:30 PM in Theory