6 months into jazz - overwhelmed and not sure where to focus. Advice?

[CliffR]

Like that time I taught scuba diving. It's sink or swim, I told them. And, to be fair, the stronger students did indeed survive.

[Litterick]

It's very positional, but easy because there are only five patterns, and then one pattern for each five strings. It's then repeated after 5 strings.

First, I think you need to have spent many years getting to know Chord tones, Intervals and Arps.

If you look at the fretboard diagram (below), from the highest string you will see 5 distinct string lines, which are repeated again a semi tone higher at the low string.
Attachment 133227

Warning: this is P4 tuning. Standard tuning is slightly different.

EDIT: NOT FOR BEGINNERS

I do not believe in the chromatic scale. I think it is just a name for all the notes. I suspect it is a trick to fool beginners.

I play in P4 tuning and I am not a beginner.

[Christian Miller]

I do not believe in the chromatic scale. I think it is just a name for all the notes. I suspect it is a trick to fool beginners.

I play in P4 tuning and I am not a beginner.

Well the chromatic scale believes in you, L!


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[ragman1]

I have never yet seen a melody based on the chromatic scale, not even by Shoenberg.

[rpjazzguitar]

If the OP wasn't really overwhelmed when he started this thread, after 193 posts, he's probably overwhelmed now.

[ragman1]

He was born overwhelmed

[onezeho]

If the OP wasn't really overwhelmed when he started this thread, after 193 posts, he's probably overwhelmed now.

Noo, I'm fine. I'm still working on AL and looking at it from different angles

[ragman1]

But can you play it at different angles?

[GuyBoden]

I do not believe in the chromatic scale. I think it is just a name for all the notes.

I think 'Chromatic' is a handy name for a scale containing all the notes in western music, easier than using 'All the Notes' scale.

[joe2758]

I think 'Chromatic' is a handy name for a scale containing all the notes in western music, easier than using 'All the Notes' scale.

I like "that one scale, you know, it has all the notes in row? Yeah, that one."

[alltunes]

Noo, I'm fine. I'm still working on AL and looking at it from different angles

In my opinion you are doing exactly the right thing especially in the context of your opening statement….being overwhelmed…

So keep it simple…work on one song at a time….really get to know it inside and out…there is a reason why Autumn Leaves is often suggested as a first tune…..learn the melody, map out the arpeggios, the chord tones, the 3rd and 7ths of each chord, even the lyrics…you should know the intent of the song

The one thing I would say is that for your next song pick one you really love and connect with not because it is in the top ten of must know jazz standards…if it does happen to be one of those all the better

Don’t waste your time chasing rabbit holes…stay focused….play songs THEN seek knowledge to apply to those songs…and you will never be done with a song it will be a continuing work in process forever…so take the pressure off…just march forward and enjoy the process

There is a lot of talented people here and out there on the internet but many love to unnecessarily complicate things

Learn the melody…learn the chords then play around with them

BTW there is a great free lesson on Autumn Leaves right here on this website….I’m sure it will show you another “angle”

Autumn Leaves for Jazz Guitar - Chord Melody & Solo (Tabs)

One last thing…in this day and age of premium online video lessons I would not mess around with books.

p.s. reluctant to add yet another YT link to this thread but this video demonstrates the steps to really learn a song

[AllanAllen]

I never watched that one because of the thumbnail. It's got good stuff in it, I laughed out loud when he said "If you can't play the roots in time, you don't need to study Coltrane changes or some Barry Harris, you need to play whole tone roots"

This is exactly what I mean when I say work on foundation.

[ragman1]

The progression he's using is too long for a first timer. 4 bars then 8 bars would do it. That one goes on for 16. Also the symbols aren't simple, there's m9, 13, 69, and so on. And no M7's?

Am7 - Dm7 - G7 - C6
F6 - Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7
Dm7 - G7 - C6 - A7
Dm7 - G7 - C6 - (E7)

That's also going to be confusing because of the repetitions and a sudden A7 after two Am7's. And that's only half the song.

If it is a 32 bar-type standard it ought to have a name and a nice tune. Familiarity with that would give the chords some context and sense.

And I don't like him anyway, looks like a shark. He waves his finger, lays down the law, and talks to you like a religious nut threatening you with hell if you don't do what they say.

God, I hate teachers. Ones like that, anyway.

[alltunes]

He waves his finger, lays down the law, and talks to you like a religious nut threatening you with hell if you don't do what they say.

Hmmm….sounds familiar

[fep]

From my teacher back in the 70s

[AllanAllen]

The progression he's using is too long for a first timer. 4 bars then 8 bars would do it. That one goes on for 16. Also the symbols aren't simple, there's m9, 13, 69, and so on. And no M7's?

Am7 - Dm7 - G7 - C6
F6 - Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7
Dm7 - G7 - C6 - A7
Dm7 - G7 - C6 - (E7)

That's also going to be confusing because of the repetitions and a sudden A7 after two Am7's. And that's only half the song.

If it is a 32 bar-type standard it ought to have a name and a nice tune. Familiarity with that would give the chords some context and sense.

And I don't like him anyway, looks like a shark. He waves his finger, lays down the law, and talks to you like a religious nut threatening you with hell if you don't do what they say.

God, I hate teachers. Ones like that, anyway.

Good news, the video isn't for a first timer to study from. It's to wake up someone like OP who is dabbling in things beyond their grasp and show them an overview of the next year or two will be.

If you can't handle 4 bars of changes, you can't handle Barry Harris. If you don't know A-7 to A7 can be steamrolled into A7, you can't handle Coltrane substitutions. It's all very fast moving and clever from my view. But I'm probably the intended audience, just good enough to know some songs, but also abysmally green in the big picture. I fell apart doing triad voice leading.

[ragman1]

Good news, the video isn't for a first timer to study from

Isn't it? Someone who's playing jazz already wouldn't need this simple stuff.

It's to wake up someone like OP

Actually, if you read his first post, he's very awake, he just can't play any of it. But he's okay with a cheat sheet so he might do all right with Dracula :-)

If you can't handle 4 bars of changes, you can't handle Barry Harris.

You do say the strangest things. If you can't handle 4 bars of changes how are you going to handle the 6th demented scale and those appallingly bad quality mumbling BH videos?

If you don't know A-7 to A7 can be steamrolled into A7, you can't handle Coltrane substitutions.

No one can handle the Coltrane substitutions! Whoops, there's that bad joke again.

It's all very fast moving and clever from my view.

Slick's a better word, probably. Loud, oily, dyspepsia-inducing, and if you didn't already have PTSD...

I fell apart doing triad voice leading.

Ah, now that's different. That's only for special people like you.

Gosh, that was a long post

[ragman1]

Hmmm….sounds familiar

Never happened to me, thankfully, but I've seen a lot of movies

[rpjazzguitar]

In my opinion you are doing exactly the right thing especially in the context of your opening statement….being overwhelmed…

I thought the video outlines a reasonable approach to learning a song. I don't agree that doing it any other way will inevitably result in a dog-**** solo.

For example, a good way to learn a song might be this. Learn the melody the same way any non-musician learns the melody of a song they like. You hear it enough times and it sticks. Then, have a well-enough developed ear that you can hang the chords off of the melody. You don't necessarily need to know the chord names or the names of the notes in the bass line or be able to restrict yourself to triads. But, you can hear it all well enough to play a bass line, comp the chords and play through the changes. To do that, your ear needs to be good and your fingers need to be good at finding the notes in your mind.

How do you get there? I think it depends on the state of your ear. If your ear is good enough, it will come naturally with time on the instrument. If your ear isn't up to the task, you have to work on it. The approach in the video would certainly help, but I can think of other ways to get there, including transcription, comping along with backing tracks in 12 keys, playing the melody to a song you know in 12 keys etc.

[AllanAllen]

Isn't it? Someone who's playing jazz already wouldn't need this simple stuff.

Actually, if you read his first post, he's very awake, he just can't play any of it. But he's okay with a cheat sheet so he might do all right with Dracula :-)

This reminds of talking to my 8 year old...
"What time is it daddy?"

4 o'clock

"No, it's 3:56"

You do say the strangest things. If you can't handle 4 bars of changes how are you going to handle the 6th demented scale and those appallingly bad quality mumbling BH videos?

No one can handle the Coltrane substitutions! Whoops, there's that bad joke again.

This is proving my point, so I guess we are on the same page here.

Slick's a better word, probably. Loud, oily, dyspepsia-inducing, and if you didn't already have PTSD...

Agree

Ah, now that's different. That's only for special people like you.

I am not special, I try to make that my overall message. I can do this, but I can do it because of consistent effort, not innate talent or any mystical BS. Because of that, so can you, dear reader, play some swinging lines.

[Christian Miller]

This reminds of talking to my 8 year old...
"What time is it daddy?"

4 o'clock

"No, it's 3:56"

Clearly a jazz guitarist in waiting

[Christian Miller]

I have never yet seen a melody based on the chromatic scale, not even by Shoenberg.

This is one’s quite well known I think

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[AllanAllen]

Clearly a jazz guitarist in waiting

No lie, his ear is better than mine. He'll sit next to me when I'm transcribing and say frustrating things like "you're close, but that's not right"

[pamosmusic]

Am7 - Dm7 - G7 - C6
F6 - Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7
Dm7 - G7 - C6 - A7
Dm7 - G7 - C6 - (E7)

That's also going to be confusing because of the repetitions and a sudden A7 after two Am7's. And that's only half the song.

If it is a 32 bar-type standard it ought to have a name and a nice tune. Familiarity with that would give the chords some context and sense.

Brother, thats Fly Me to the Moon.

[jazzyfan]

The fun thing with "get a teacher" is that you can try 10 different teachers and get 10 way different approaches.

Yes, and that's the essence of the problem.
You would have thought that by now the plectrum technique would be solidly codified, similar to the Classic technique.
It should be, but it's not.
That's largely because people have "bought" into a technique and by the time that they realize that it's flawed, it's "too late" for them to change - and they tell themselves it's "ok" because others use the same approach....Misery loves company.

So they give that virus to their students, even if they privately know all about the problems that the technique is going to give that student.

It's awful, and what's possibly more comical/worrying is that SO many don't even know about the flaws - or if they do, they aren't honest about it and pretend it's ok.