6 months into jazz - overwhelmed and not sure where to focus. Advice?

[CliffR]

What if you've spent months (years?) practicing a thing, being assured that it will eventually come out in your playing, and it seems like you've really been practicing it for a long time now....

[AllanAllen]

By comparison, a "competent jammer" might have 2,000 hours, 100 tunes, gig ready same week, can solo on most of those tunes, has some holes, and may have some timing and technique issues

This should be a five time over working musician. It takes about 20 songs to play a 3 hour gig. If someone knows 100 tunes and still hasn't gotten a trio, they're either so toxic nobody will work with them or chickenshit.

That's to say, it's a personality issue, not a skill issue.

[joe2758]

If someone knows 100 tunes and still hasn't gotten a trio, they're either so toxic nobody will work with them or chickenshit.

That's to say, it's a personality issue, not a skill issue.

wow, man...

[mr. beaumont]

I can't figure out for the life of me why the OP was feeling overwhelmed.

[pamosmusic]

Part of the problem with this scale is that being a competent jammer is way harder than having a three hour gig together

[joe2758]

Exactly...If the brave and charismatic trio leader can play 20 songs off the top of his head, what does he do when non of them get called at the jam with all the defective chicken shits?

edit: ugh, and I was going to not say anything but...
Dude, not everyone who is able wants to start a fu**in passable trio to go travel an hour to play a farmers market for half what they make at their regular job.

You're realistic about you playing level, and I get it, you're proud of your trio...you're right anyone can do it, there's hundreds of them. What is your hyper fixation on this? because you do it?

[AllanAllen]

What is your hyper fixation on this? because you do it?

No, it's because YOU can do it.

Not just you Joe, but any of the you's browsing the forum hoping to one day play jazz. The best way to learn is by playing with others. The best way, for me, to keep that momentum going is to have gigs. The only thing stopping you is yourself (the metaphorical you's, I'm trying to inspire).

[mr. beaumont]

Part of the problem with this scale is that being a competent jammer is way harder than having a three hour gig together

Very true! If its my gig, you bet I'll be playing tunes i can kill it on.

[joe2758]

No, it's because YOU can do it.

Not just you Joe, but any of the you's browsing the forum hoping to one day play jazz. The best way to learn is by playing with others. The best way, for me, to keep that momentum going is to have gigs. The only thing stopping you is yourself (the metaphorical you's, I'm trying to inspire).

Yeah man, I think your main point is really good actually, and unique perspective on the forum. I think your intentions are good, and it is something good for many to hear: that you don't have to be top tier to make a group and get gigs. Your other point of it being the best way to improv can't be wrong.

What came across, though is an assumption that it is everyone's goal and what is keeping them from it are just excuses. Your advice is perfect for some, maybe many people, who want to do it but put it off.

But come on, what you said was pretty insulting.

Here's maybe an example: "I want to be a powerlifter, but I'll wait til I'm good to enter a competition": scared person needs encouragement

"I enjoy lifting, but I don't think I want to get into the competition scene. Sometimes I meet people there and we workout together with no one watching." chicken shit? scared of other people? can't get along?

my example doesn't have to do with "competitive" aspect of this analogy

[AllanAllen]

Okay, but, you're in this thread discussing the minutia of being a professional musician.

To follow your analogy, it's like a guy in the locker room of a powerlifting event asking the guys why they are talking about professional powerlifting.

I'm confused where I went over a line.

[joe2758]

Okay, but, you're in this thread discussing the minutia of being a professional musician.

To follow your analogy, it's like a guy in the locker room of a powerlifting event asking the guys why they are talking about professional powerlifting.

I'm confused where I went over a line.

What your initial comment was in reply to was the video I posted where my point was "here is a guy who uses the term pro-level NOT to refer to being an actual pro, here is how one respectable person uses the word."

You said the guy lower on the list should be gigging, which is technically missing my (and his, I don't really agree with the list btw) point. That's fine, no line crossed

I'd say the line is calling people chicken shits or they have a personality disorder if they don't do what you do.

So, the analogy still seems to be working so: Guy in the locker room who does competitions is talking to pros in the locker room says "Anyone who can lift x-amount but doesn't do competitions is just a chicken shit or they have a personality disorder." other guy says "why? that's a mean thing to say. I can lift that and I have no interest. Am I a pussy? Am I a toxic person?"

Maybe the next line will be "yeah you can lift that, but can you lift it in a competition? Because that's all that really counts. Because I can"

[AllanAllen]

I guess I see your point. From my perspective, there's a guy lifting 110lbs, when I can see them easily doing 200. So, you egg them on because 110 is nothing.

If we aren't pushing ourselves to improve, what are we even doing?

[joe2758]

Well, I certainly agree if someone wants to gig they should go for it

[rpjazzguitar]

When I first played standards gigs in the 60s, there were no charts. I recall a leader/pianist who had a handwritten notebook of charts that he used, but everybody else was expected to know whatever he called.

Nowadays, when I go out to hear jazz, I usually see charts. I subbed, some time ago, in a tenor, bass and guitar trio with a couple top local players. They called chestnuts like Autumn Leaves and actually took out RB charts even for those. I shared one with the horn player. Since he didn't know me, that could have been solely for my benefit. But then the bassist did the same thing with his own book. That surprised me since I can't believe they didn't know the tunes. But, it dis idiot-proof the gig.

A recent exception is a public jam with some pretty good players. I seem some phones out, but not everybody. The leader will sometimes call out the name of the tune and then invite players on stage who know it. I've also once heard him rattle off some rapid bandstand shorthand for changes to My Favorite Things which, as it turned out, was wrong and the tune was substantially a trainwreck. One pleasant surprise was that a number of young guys, meaning 20s and maybe 30s, knew a lot of the tunes and played great.

I've heard about leaders who don't want charts on stage but send them out in advance to be memorized.

And, I play, in big band, with some fine players who turn out not to know many tunes at all, but read really well.

The point is that, around here, the thing about knowing a zillion tunes has changed.

[AllanAllen]

When I first played standards gigs in the 60s, there were no charts. I recall a leader/pianist who had a handwritten notebook of charts that he used, but everybody else was expected to know whatever he called.

The point is that, around here, the thing about knowing a zillion tunes has changed.

What did he call? The same 30-40 tunes every gig? It’s easy to play off book when it’s the same stuff.

How often were the gigs? Easier to remember 100 tunes if you’re cycling through them all 5+ gigs a week. Easier to fake stuff if you have this schedule too.

[Christian Miller]

I had a couple of Real Book prangs on gigs lately. Wrong changes to Four and four bars missing in Desifinado. It was like old times!.

In that situation if the horn player is reading from the OG Real Book and you are not, you have to know the error, and go with them. A younger player, ignorant of the Deep Lore would have had trouble…

Some people aren’t very good at remembering tunes but are very good readers. It happens.

Tbh I don’t play a tune for a while it has a distressing tendency to fall out of my head. Aural memory is strongest. That’s the thing to target, never intellectual memory.


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[rpjazzguitar]

What did he call? The same 30-40 tunes every gig? It’s easy to play off book when it’s the same stuff.

How often were the gigs? Easier to remember 100 tunes if you’re cycling through them all 5+ gigs a week. Easier to fake stuff if you have this schedule too.

I'd guess less than 50 and maybe a lot less than that. I wasn't a regular.

I did a weekly gig for a year with a RB kind of group. By the end of the year I could play a night without charts if we stuck to the frequently called tunes.

I'm not good at memorizing changes, but I could play a long gig without charts -- if I get to call all the tunes.

[AllanAllen]

I had a couple of Real Book prangs on gigs lately. Wrong changes to Four

whats wrong with Four? Ab6 is the same as F-7.

[pamosmusic]

whats wrong with Four? Ab6 is the same as F-7.

bass player would disagree

[Christian Miller]

whats wrong with Four? Ab6 is the same as F-7.

If the bass player is reading Ab, it very much is not.

The old RB changes are
Eb | Ab-7 Eb7 | Ab | Ab-7

The correct ones are the rather less obvious
Eb | Eb-7 Ab7 | F-7 | Ab-7

So mostly it’s bar 2


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[AllanAllen]

What tune are you taking about? That doesn’t look like Four.

it def holds that Eb^7 for 2 bars.

[AllanAllen]

bass player would disagree

He does but I showed him how they have the same notes and the grips are inversions of each other.

Guitar can be pretty convoluted. Thinking in grips with chord inversions, but using the name of the root.

I know they aren’t the same, but without context you can’t know if it’s F-7, Ab6 or the other two. I think there’s a m7b5 in there and if there’s one of them there’s a rootless dom9. So that’s at least 5 chords any chord could be.

[djg]

fwiw wes plays it like the old RB version

[djg]

What tune are you taking about? That doesn’t look like Four.

it def holds that Eb^7 for 2 bars.

that is quite obviously what he meant. the difference is Ebm7 Ab7 vs Bbm7 Eb7 in bar 3 and 4.

[AllanAllen]

I don’t know what’s going on anymore.