6 months into jazz - overwhelmed and not sure where to focus. Advice?

[ragman1]

This discussion exists because there are two versions and they are different. I've been through most of the pro transcriptions and the majority favor Ebm7-Ab7-Fm7. So do the backing tracks. It's a fact.

[ragman1]

if it is not a leadsheet by the composer it is not worth mentioning.

If that was true we'd all be playing Bbo at the beginning of Stella. Now everyone plays Em7b5-A7b9. Music evolves, it moves on. That's another fact :-)

[Christian Miller]

Musicians would probably prefer the Ebm7 - Ab7 but an audience might respond better to the Bbm7 - Eb7.

Lol. I don’t think audience much care. I think in this case it sounds better if the band plays the same version, as the two don’t really agree.

Musicians would probably prefer you play the right changes, provided they know what they are.

I think the original changes sound better


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[pamosmusic]

This discussion exists because there are two versions and they are different. I've been through most of the pro transcriptions and the majority favor Ebm7-Ab7-Fm7. So do the backing tracks. It's a fact.

It could be raining. It could be sunny. Ive been through most of the forecasts and the majority say it’s raining. Its a fact.

Yes but is it a useful fact when you could always step outside and check for yourself?

[ragman1]

The usual villains agree with themselves. Means nothing to me.

[pamosmusic]

The usual villains agree with themselves. Means nothing to me.

I know. Suggesting you listen to a song rather than watch a YouTube video telling you what it sounds like.

Diabolical.

[ragman1]

I think the original changes sound better

Actually, so do I but no one asked me :-)

[AllanAllen]

just because it is in a book doesnt say anything. if it is not a leadsheet by the composer it is not worth mentioning.

I thought what the various leadsheets say is part of the discussion that was happening. Especially when someone else says the changes have been corrected in realbook Vol. 6. Then I look, and they aren't different. Seems valid to point out.

[rpjazzguitar]

This is may be a non-sequitur, but I'm wondering if anybody else feels this way.

In many cases, maybe most, I take the song as whatever is in the chart, usually a leadsheet. Each recording is then simply an arrangement of the song, which depending on the context, I'm inclined to ignore unless the group is clearly playing a particular version.

This is, of course, dead wrong from the usual perspective. After all, the leadsheet may be a transcription of a recording and not the composer's original. And it may seem sacreligous not to play something like the usual bop intro to ATTYA.

I do notice that musicians who have taken the trouble to learn a recording, especially the original recording, may tend to resist taking the tune in a very different direction, at least, without a detailed chart.

But, the thing that I like about the approach (other than the fact that it avoids transcription, which I suck at and therefore don't enjoy - which is probably why I think this way) is that it goes right to the issue of creating a new, original, arrangement that reflects the sensibilities of whoever is playing it.

For the current discussion, it wouldn't bother me to play the "wrong" chords if I thought they sounded better.

I've heard an argument about respecting the composer, but I think that ship has sailed. I've heard a barely recognizable version of Stella by Robert Glasper at the Blue Note (live) and an equally unrecognizable version of Ipanema by Trio Corrente. I don't think that sort of thing is disrespectful.

Doing this sort of personal arranging is easiest when it's just guitar and voice, but if can work with other instruments if the players aren't thinking about the recordings.

[djg]

I thought what the various leadsheets say is part of the discussion that was happening. Especially when someone else says the changes have been corrected in realbook Vol. 6. Then I look, and they aren't different. Seems valid to point out.

i didnt read all. sure, leadsheets can be part of a discussion but they are never a source of truth. they are just an opinion. also if by legal realbook you mean the legal hal leonard version 6th edition, it does have the correct change Ebm Ab7 so they actually have been corrected.

[Christian Miller]

i didnt read all. sure, leadsheets can be part of a discussion but they are never a source of truth. they are just an opinion. also if by legal realbook you mean the legal hal leonard version 6th edition, it does have the correct change Ebm Ab7 so they actually have been corrected.

FWIW it’s also one of the mistakes identified in the 5th edition errata. I don’t think anyone read the errata?


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[Christian Miller]

This is may be a non-sequitur, but I'm wondering if anybody else feels this way.

In many cases, maybe most, I take the song as whatever is in the chart, usually a leadsheet. Each recording is then simply an arrangement of the song, which depending on the context, I'm inclined to ignore unless the group is clearly playing a particular version.

This is, of course, dead wrong from the usual perspective. After all, the leadsheet may be a transcription of a recording and not the composer's original. And it may seem sacreligous not to play something like the usual bop intro to ATTYA.

I do notice that musicians who have taken the trouble to learn a recording, especially the original recording, may tend to resist taking the tune in a very different direction, at least, without a detailed chart.

But, the thing that I like about the approach (other than the fact that it avoids transcription, which I suck at and therefore don't enjoy - which is probably why I think this way) is that it goes right to the issue of creating a new, original, arrangement that reflects the sensibilities of whoever is playing it.

For the current discussion, it wouldn't bother me to play the "wrong" chords if I thought they sounded better.

I've heard an argument about respecting the composer, but I think that ship has sailed. I've heard a barely recognizable version of Stella by Robert Glasper at the Blue Note (live) and an equally unrecognizable version of Ipanema by Trio Corrente. I don't think that sort of thing is disrespectful.

Doing this sort of personal arranging is easiest when it's just guitar and voice, but if can work with other instruments if the players aren't thinking about the recordings.

There’s a difference between reharmonising a tune and playing it wrong from a chart without realising.

The real book was full of errors, and this was acknowledged by the existence of an extensive errata that was updated in later editions. The mistakes were not corrected in the charts themselves, so this was largely ignored lol. But it’s all there if you check.

[joe2758]

If that was true we'd all be playing Bbo at the beginning of Stella. Now everyone plays Em7b5-A7b9. Music evolves, it moves on. That's another fact :-)

I wish they did lol

[Reg]

yea... Miles version from "Four and More" uses Eb-7 Ab7 on bars 3 and 4 and F-7 on bar 5...

// Ebma7 / (Ebmaj7) / Eb-7 / Ab7 /

/ F-7 / (F-7) / Ab-7 / Db7#11 /

/ G-79b13) / F#-7 B7 / F-7 / Bb7 //


I do remember playing the other version, or reading a chart back at Berklee in 74... I only simi remember because one of my gigs was transcribing tunes and making charts while working in the ensemble Rm. and I changed the chart to match the record "Four and More", when making 2 and 3 horn arrangements I still have the real book before it was the real book.LOL ( There were lots of mistakes .... the technology was rough LOL

generally... the chart would be just for the head or an arrangement etc... usually tunes expand, develop etc...
when being played.

never heard from onezeho, Maybe I'll message him...

[PMB]

It was PMB if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, it was me. It's in no way a complete lift but there are lots of similarities (particularly in the closing figure of the head) between Donna Lee and Ice Freezes Red recorded by Fats Navarro a few months earlier:

[grahambop]

Actually the real book errata makes a nice selection of tunes:

[Christian Miller]

Actually the real book errata makes a nice selection of tunes:

Yeah it's really noticeable that the corrections are almost all for really common standards, and there aren't corrections for things like 'General Mojo's Well Laid Plan'.

AFAIK the reason for that is that those 1970s fusion charts were all based on the composers lead sheets apparently, because they were all on Berklee faculty at the time, including Metheny. (Which is why the tunes from Bright Size Life are called 'Exercises'.)

[AllanAllen]

AFAIK the reason for that is that those 1970s fusion charts were all based on the composers lead sheets apparently, because they were all on Berklee faculty at the time, including Metheny. (Which is why the tunes from Bright Size Life are called 'Exercises'.)

I thought it was because they were the ones who put the book together and they tossed some of their tunes in.

[John A.]

I thought it was because they were the ones who put the book together and they tossed some of their tunes in.

The Real Book was put together by students at Berklee (most sources say two people), not faculty. The authors (compilers? not sure what to call the people who put it together) got some guidance from some faculty (e.g., Steve Swallow) and included a bunch of their tunes (with permission). Steve Swallow has talked about this a bunch in interviews.

[joe2758]

The Real Book was put together by students at Berklee (most sources say two people), not faculty. The authors (compilers? not sure what to call the people who put it together) got some guidance from some faculty (e.g., Steve Swallow) and included a bunch of their tunes (with permission). Steve Swallow has talked about this a bunch in interviews.

I think Pat Metheny was actually pretty involved...from what I gathered in his Beato interview

[Christian Miller]

I think Pat Metheny was actually pretty involved...from what I gathered in his Beato interview

Good to have someone to blame


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[joe2758]

Good to have someone to blame


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i blame music theory

[AllanAllen]

Jazz guitar players have it hard enough without the real book being blamed on us too.

[GuyBoden]

Yeah, it was me. It's in no way a complete lift but there are lots of similarities (particularly in the closing figure of the head) between Donna Lee and Ice Freezes Red recorded by Fats Navarro a few months earlier:

Well done.

Link: Post 4 in 2016-06-20, 04:44
Poll: Who do you think composed Donna Lee

2016-06-20, 04:44

Don't forget Fats Navarro's contribution (check out the end of his intro for the Indiana contrafact, Ice Freezes Red):

In the 1940's Fats Navarro was arguably the most advanced Bebop Trumpet player, he had played the "Back Home In Indiana" changes with Charlie Parker many times, including a recording with Barry Ulanov's group.

[Christian Miller]

i blame music theory

Nah it’s Pat’s fault for sure


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