6 months into jazz - overwhelmed and not sure where to focus. Advice?

[joe2758]

Make sure your locked-in notes on the upbeats are accented and louder than your downbeats. That's a good starting point in learning how to play this music.

When I was developing this feel I slurred into downbeats everywhere it was comfortable and never slurred into an upbeat. You have to be mindful to swing the slurs and that might not be natural at first. But now that feel is in my head and i get the same feel on picked notes as well, but that just happened naturally.

I'm talking about over doing it...just for learning

[djg]

3) Your note lengths need to be short. Newcomers to jazz don't realise that their downbeats and/or upbeats notes sound way to long and 'flabby'. There's no snap to any of their playing. (That said, I'm not asking you to play staccato on everything.) You have to listen to how jazz musicians do it.

this

[pamosmusic]

When I was developing this feel I slurred into downbeats everywhere it was comfortable and never slurred into an upbeat. You have to be mindful to swing the slurs and that might not be natural at first. But now that feel is in my head and i get the same feel on picked notes as well, but that just happened naturally.

I'm talking about over doing it...just for learning

Oh did you now ….

[onezeho]

OP, do you listen to a lot of jazz? Who are you listening to?

Other questions: what does "rhythmically falling apart" mean in the context of transcription?

I can't get your file to play, but if that recording was literally the first time you tried playing changes, then you don't need ANY of this academic stuff yet. You need to pick 10 tunes, learn the chords, try to learn the melody by ear (transcribe melodies! Not just solos) and work on playing them in time and sounding good.

Yes, I listen to a lot of jazz, but right now it's a pretty chaotic process - I try to listen attentively through full albums but it doesn't always work out. I don't have a favourite artist yet that I could keep coming back to again and again. Trumpet players are what I love most. Here's what resonates with me so far:

1. Kind of Blue by Miles Davis - I love putting it on late at night
2. Kenny Dorham, Gerry Mulligan, Cannonball Adderley, Johnny Hodges
3. Atomic Basie - a big love, I adore it

I listen to others in bits and pieces and enjoy them too, but haven't given them the proper attention yet: Bill Evans, Louis Armstrong, Dizzy, Charlie Parker, Chet Baker, Brubeck, Hancock
I haven't listened to much guitar - it somehow put me off, not sure why. The one thing I love from Joe Pass is Offbeat from Virtuoso #3

When I said "rhythmically falling apart" I meant that when I try to transcribe rhythm, I lose the plot - I can't hear the subdivisions and sometimes can't even lock in with the basic pulse. I recently tried to transcribe the piano melody from Louis Armstrong's A Kiss to Build a Dream On, but when I started putting it into Guitar Pro I got completely lost with the rhythm

Any listening recommendations are welcome!

[John A.]

Hello everyone. I'd appreciate some advice, but first I'd like to provide a little context about my musical background and where I am right now

I'm 25. I picked up guitar at 16, but for a long time it was just a casual hobby - strumming chord-based songs, picking things out by ear, improvising with no real system. I only started taking it seriously about 2-3 years ago

For a while I got pretty deep into music theory - YouTube channels, reading, trying to wrap my head around harmony. My theoretical knowledge grew, but my actual playing didn't keep up. Until fairly recently I'd barely touched scales, positions, ear training, or rhythm work in any structured way.

About six months ago I made the switch to jazz. I started listening a lot and realized this was the direction I wanted to go. I worked through Jens Larsen's material - shell chords, basic jazz concepts - and for the first time started taking the metronome seriously

From there I moved into standards: Take Five, then All of Me. Working through those made it very clear how weak my rhythm was, so I spent a lot of time on the metronome, triplets, and swing feel. The swing thing eventually clicked in a way I didn't expect - not through any explanation, but physically. At some point the triplet eighth just settled into place and I felt it from the inside. That was probably the biggest single moment for me these past few months

Right now I'm working through Chris Parks' Barry Harris material. I've got the major scale in one position down - triads, thirds, chords, up and down - and I'm working on chord tones, chromatics, and the diminished 6 scales. But I'm starting to feel overwhelmed. There's a lot coming at once and it's getting hard to hold it all

The gaps I'm aware of:

• Ear training, especially transcribing - melodically I can get somewhere, rhythmically I fall apart
• The connection between what I hear, sing, and play
• Understanding the function of notes within the harmony
• Improvising through chord changes
• Feeling free inside swing when actually playing
• Fretboard knowledge

My main question: looking at the full picture, where should I focus right now? Keep pushing through Barry Harris even when it feels like too much? Shift toward ear training and transcription? Work more on rhythm? Or is there something more fundamental I'm missing altogether?

I think you're missing something more fundamental -- learn tunes, play with other people, have fun. You do mention two tunes, so I'm not sure if you're playing more than this, but if not you should (and I'd definitely not bother focusing on Take 5). There are all kinds of lists of the best tunes to start with, but at a minimum it should include several GASB tunes with a mix of song forms and keys, at least one rhythm changes tune (I Got Rhythm, Oleo, Cotton Tail, etc.), some blues heads, some bossa nova tunes (e.g., Girl From Ipanema, Corcovado, Black Orpheus), and some jazz-specific standards, e.g., So What, Sugar, Ellington tunes (e.g., Satin Doll or A-Train), Blue Bossa, maybe a bop head or two. If at all possible, find some people to hang/jam with. Jazz is an ensemble/social form.

[brent.h]

Mr B is right.

Get a few tunes you love, and learn the plain melody and chords. Try to not to learn a jazzed up version.

Once you can do that cleanly, interpret the song: How are you going to apply swing to the melody? Where are you going to place those accents on the melody?

Tada! You're one step closer to playing jazz!

[onezeho]

You're a great community, thank you for all the advice - it's been a real pleasure reading your responses

[joe2758]

Oh did you now ….

Yeah! at one of the lessons you even asked me "I'm curious, did you practice slurring into up beats or do you just do it?" and I had to admit, no, nothing has been natural

edit: then again I probably got the idea from one of your posts or C's

[brent.h]

You're a great community, thank you for all the advice - it's been a real pleasure reading your responses

We need to have more proper musicians in the world in the face of AI slop-music! Good luck!

Edit: Try learning the song 'Moonglow' in the key of G. Nice and simple tune. Learn the melody and chords. Then apply swing and accents to the melody.

[onezeho]

We need to have more proper musicians in the world in the face of AI slop-music! Good luck!

Edit: Try learning the song 'Moonglow' in the key of G. Nice and simple tune. Learn the melody and chords. Then apply swing and accents to the melody.

oh, that sounds great I'll give it a try

[mr. beaumont]

I recently tried to transcribe the piano melody from Louis Armstrong's A Kiss to Build a Dream On, but when I started putting it into Guitar Pro I got completely lost with the rhythm

Any listening recommendations are welcome!

Trumpet players are great to listen to, especially on open horn.

I'd skip the software and get some pencil and paper. Just drop in the rhythms into each bar, then get the pitches. If you can't figure out how to notate the rhythms exactly, who cares? This isn't for class, its for you. The biggest thing to gain from transcription is the intense listening anyway...you don't even need to write things out to gain from it.

When you learn tunes, listen to different versions...im not sure if there is such a thing as "plain melody" in jazz. Listen to the ways players you like play a tune. Steal ideas, inflections. That part is important. Jazz is as much about how you play the notes as it is what notes you play.

We had a thread here last year, about just playing the melody. You should get in on that.

[AllanAllen]

OP said they liked Kind of Blue. Why not learn those 5 songs. If you can't get the melody by ear, videos like this can help you build your ear.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah! at one of the lessons you even asked me "I'm curious, did you practice slurring into up beats or do you just do it?" and I had to admit, no, nothing has been natural

edit: then again I probably got the idea from one of your posts or C's

Im just messing with you!

Its good stuff for sure

[GuyBoden]

[pamosmusic]

The rule:

Whenever someone tells you that something boils down to one thing, it’s probably more complicated than they’re letting on.

Slurring into downbeats is a big one, but transcribe a lot of guitarists and you’ll see how rarely people are doctrinaire about this articulation.

Even with horn players, articulation is a much more flexible thing. Even saying they slur into downbeats most of the time only implies it’s more than half the time. And I’d wager it’s closer to the 51% than the 99%. Style is important here too.

Anyway — listening is key. Sing along with stuff and trust when your ear tells you that a great player is breaking one of the “rules.”

[mr. beaumont]

Personally, I think telling a beginner to stress over something that small isn't going to help them a lick.

[joe2758]

Personally, I think telling a beginner to stress over something that small isn't going to help them a lick.

No pun intended but I don't get the sense you are a "lick guy"

I say if you're learning licks those details are good to ingrain. Not for improv tho

[dconeill]

Hello everyone. I'd appreciate some advice, ...
My main question: looking at the full picture, where should I focus right now? ... Or is there something more fundamental I'm missing altogether?

Play with others - but not other guitar players - even if you suck. Gain experience.

[John A.]

No pun intended but I don't get the sense you are a "lick guy"

I say if you're learning licks those details are good to ingrain. Not for improv tho

Is there any bigger lie in the English language than "no pun intended" followed by a pun?

[Hep To The Jive]

Hello everyone. I'd appreciate some advice, but first I'd like to provide a little context about my musical background and where I am right now

I'm 25. I picked up guitar at 16, but for a long time it was just a casual hobby - strumming chord-based songs, picking things out by ear, improvising with no real system. I only started taking it seriously about 2-3 years ago

For a while I got pretty deep into music theory - YouTube channels, reading, trying to wrap my head around harmony. My theoretical knowledge grew, but my actual playing didn't keep up. Until fairly recently I'd barely touched scales, positions, ear training, or rhythm work in any structured way.

About six months ago I made the switch to jazz. I started listening a lot and realized this was the direction I wanted to go. I worked through Jens Larsen's material - shell chords, basic jazz concepts - and for the first time started taking the metronome seriously

From there I moved into standards: Take Five, then All of Me. Working through those made it very clear how weak my rhythm was, so I spent a lot of time on the metronome, triplets, and swing feel. The swing thing eventually clicked in a way I didn't expect - not through any explanation, but physically. At some point the triplet eighth just settled into place and I felt it from the inside. That was probably the biggest single moment for me these past few months

Right now I'm working through Chris Parks' Barry Harris material. I've got the major scale in one position down - triads, thirds, chords, up and down - and I'm working on chord tones, chromatics, and the diminished 6 scales. But I'm starting to feel overwhelmed. There's a lot coming at once and it's getting hard to hold it all

The gaps I'm aware of:

• Ear training, especially transcribing - melodically I can get somewhere, rhythmically I fall apart
• The connection between what I hear, sing, and play
• Understanding the function of notes within the harmony
• Improvising through chord changes
• Feeling free inside swing when actually playing
• Fretboard knowledge

My main question: looking at the full picture, where should I focus right now? Keep pushing through Barry Harris even when it feels like too much? Shift toward ear training and transcription? Work more on rhythm? Or is there something more fundamental I'm missing altogether?

Man, you're from Peter? Contact Andrey Ryabov, you can search when he's peforming and ask him for lessons. He's the best in straightahead jazz and I'm sure he still give lessons. Another great player is Gasan Bagirov if he still lives in Peter. Really seek them out, they are world class and good teachers.

[mr. beaumont]

No pun intended but I don't get the sense you are a "lick guy"

I say if you're learning licks those details are good to ingrain. Not for improv tho

Im actually huge on licks. But i think articulation is something you should learn organically by listening, singing, and learning lines, not by taking a rule and trying to apply it.

I mean, you were a beginner once-- don't you remember how easy it is to get caught up in minutiae?

[GuyBoden]

I do this religiously.

It absolutely works but also has limitations.

Stuff I play swings but also, for example, playing certain types of lines at fast tempos can be very tricky. In particular playing them with consistent time. The slurs can make things easier to play, but at fast tempos it can almost feel like they bunch together or something and time can get too squishy. So that takes a lot of work. I’ve been working on Grant Greens What Is This Thing lately for this reason … it’s up tempo and he picks more than the average. So trying to play it with my usual pattern of slurring is really good practice for working through that challenge.

@pamosmusic From your post in the following thread, Post 5:
The Jazz Slur Rule?

[pamosmusic]

No pun intended but I don't get the sense you are a "lick guy"

oooo you might actually have Mr B wrong here.

[pamosmusic]

From Here:
The Jazz Slur Rule?

Right. I believe the thing I said was "it works but it has limitations." Also notice that I mentioned "Grant picks more than the average," meaning I was applying a picking pattern to his stuff that he doesn't really use.

I for sure do it religiously. I trained myself to do it by learning 30 odd bebop heads in six fingering positions each and reworking the slurs in every one.

What I usually tell students is that I do it and think it sounds great but that most guitarists don't. It's an oddball instrument and you can't always slur into downbeats, so there must necessarily be other things, right? If a pianist can swing, then there must be other things than slurring? Horns who really can pretty much slur into all there downbeats will also tend to have a much much much more nuanced sense of how to articulate a line.

If you ask a horn player if they slur into there downbeats, you'll almost certainly get a response along the lines of "Can you show me the line?"

So again -- huge believer in this way of articulating and something I'll help students with if they ask, but not something I tell students they must or even should do.

Like Mr. B said, it's a LOT of detail to be worried about and will invariably run into contradictions with what your ears are telling you Jim Hall is doing. The best advice to a beginner is to follow your ears. Having the thing about slurring in your back pocket to help you recognize what you're hearing in a lot of horn-centric stuff is certainly useful, but I wouldn't advise getting bogged down in it either.

[pamosmusic]

Man, you're from Peter? Contact Andrey Ryabov, you can search when he's peforming and ask him for lessons. He's the best in straightahead jazz and I'm sure he still give lessons. Another great player is Gasan Bagirov if he still lives in Peter. Really seek them out, they are world class and good teachers.

I found this post extremely confusing at first.