6 months into jazz - overwhelmed and not sure where to focus. Advice?

[pamosmusic]

He does but I showed him how they have the same notes and the grips are inversions of each other.

Guitar can be pretty convoluted. Thinking in grips with chord inversions, but using the name of the root.

I know they aren’t the same, but without context you can’t know if it’s F-7, Ab6 or the other two. I think there’s a m7b5 in there and if there’s one of them there’s a rootless dom9. So that’s at least 5 chords any chord could be.

But the context is the song and it is F.

For what it’s worth, you tend to hit pretty hard when, by your estimation, people make things needlessly complicated with theory and whatnot — but this is kind of an example of just that.

You’re talking about chord synonyms, but you can just listen to the tune. Yes they do have the same notes, but the bass player in the Miles recording very plainly plays an F. What exactly are we arguing about?

And for what it’s worth, maybe 75% of the rationale behind how an arranger names their chords is so that the bassist plays the right note.

C/Bb … gosh just call it a C7 … but if you want the bass player to play a Bb, you’ll want to use the former and not the latter. It actually does matter. What you write reflects what you want to hear.

[djg]

I don’t know what’s going on anymore.

it's the heat. bar 5 and 6 is Fm7 but as you point out Ab works since the sound is the same. the diff is bar 3 and 4. the RB1 changes sound like misty, they are wrong for the tune afaiac.

[Christian Miller]

it's the heat. bar 5 and 6 is Fm7 but as you point out Ab works since the sound is the same. the diff is bar 3 and 4. the RB1 changes sound like misty, they are wrong for the tune afaiac.

Thanks Holger, I’m melting


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[Christian Miller]

fwiw wes plays it like the old RB version

He does! Interesting

Yeah like that move is so much more obvious than what it is. The only tune I can think of that looks like Four is Tenderly.

Poetic justice for what Miles did to Well You needn’t haha.


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[djg]

He does! Interesting

Yeah like that move is so much more obvious than what it is. The only tune I can think of that looks like Four is Tenderly.

Poetic justice for what Miles did to Well You needn’t haha.

four, like tune up, was written by eddie cleanhead vinson

[Christian Miller]

four, like tune up, was written by eddie cleanhead vinson

Of course it flipping was.

Did Miles actually write ANYTHING?


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[GuyBoden]

[djg]

Of course it flipping was.
Did Miles actually write ANYTHING?

not donna lee, not milestones old, not seven steps to heaven, not blue in green, not nardis, not solar, not serpent's tooth, not boplicity. maybe vierd blues or all blues?

[James W]

Of course it flipping was.

Did Miles actually write ANYTHING?


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[Christian Miller]

not donna lee, not milestones old, not seven steps to heaven, not blue in green, not nardis, not solar, not serpent's tooth, not boplicity. maybe vierd blues or all blues?

Actually I do think Donna Lee is his. Which is funnier somehow


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[Christian Miller]

I mean, the electric stuff is all spliced together in post.

The authorship gets hazy

A bit like how the tunes on Live Evil turn out of be jams on the thing like Zawinul’s Directions with the (copyright) heads edited out and then retitled

Sharp business practice…


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[James W]

I mean, the electric stuff is all spliced together in post.

The authorship gets hazy

A bit like how the tunes on Live Evil turn out of be jams on the thing like Zawinul’s Directions with the (copyright) heads edited out and then retitled

Sharp business practice…


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Yes I know that. I don't think it detracts from the magnificence of it. Jazz is a collaborative thing in any case.

[Christian Miller]

Yes I know that. I don't think it detracts from the magnificence of it. Jazz is a collaborative thing in any case.

It’s very collaborative in the studio, and yet strangely less collaborative when Miles Davis can say that he wrote it haha.

I think the there was a trade off - everyone who gets screwed on royalties gets to say they played with miles, and launches their careers. The world keeps on turning.

No shade on the music … but also, reminds me a little bit of authorship of science papers. (Seriously look into it.)

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[AllanAllen]

But the context is the song and it is F.

For what it’s worth, you tend to hit pretty hard when, by your estimation, people make things needlessly complicated with theory and whatnot — but this is kind of an example of just that.

You’re talking about chord synonyms, but you can just listen to the tune. Yes they do have the same notes, but the bass player in the Miles recording very plainly plays an F. What exactly are we arguing about?

And for what it’s worth, maybe 75% of the rationale behind how an arranger names their chords is so that the bassist plays the right note.

C/Bb … gosh just call it a C7 … but if you want the bass player to play a Bb, you’ll want to use the former and not the latter. It actually does matter. What you write reflects what you want to hear.

I don’t know what bars Christian wrote out. They don’t match any part of Four. New or old Real Book. That’s my point.

The other crap ended up as convoluted rambling. Whatever point I was trying to make was dropped to sound clever. I’m just the way I am.

[Christian Miller]

I don’t know what bars Christian wrote out. They don’t match any part of Four. New or old Real Book. That’s my point.

The other crap ended up as convoluted rambling. Whatever point I was trying to make was dropped to sound clever. I’m just the way I am.

It’s the first few bars of the tune. In the original recording of four it’s Eb then Eb-7 Ab7. In the illegal real Book it’s Eb then Bb-7 Eb7.

Those changes don’t really work as subs. So when you are playing the tune it takes a minute where you are like ‘why does this sound like ass?’ And then you realise the other player is using the RB changes.

Another random gigging thing that happens.

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[djg]

Actually I do think Donna Lee is his. Which is funnier somehow

indiana was a huge transition piece in the 40s. the head is just a study with lines that almost play themselves once you apply bebop voice-leading. either miles got it from fats (and tiny kahn), or they got it from miles. the latter makes little sense to me. miles wasnt all that in 1946.

[Christian Miller]

indiana was a huge transition piece in the 40s. the head is just a study with lines that almost play themselves once you apply bebop voice-leading. either miles got it from fats (and tiny kahn), or they got it from miles. the latter makes little sense to me. miles wasnt all that in 1946.

True - was it you who posted an earlier version of it? Can’t remember

stylistically it’s similar to Little Willie Leaps


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[DestinyT]

Great thread. Reading it makes me wonder whether learning jazz is better thought of as ecological than linear.

By that I mean that progress depends on the environment you create around yourself as much as on the individual things you practise.

The tunes you live with, the recordings you listen to repeatedly, the musicians you play with, the conversations you have, the opportunities to accompany others, the sounds that fill your day, and the time you spend simply enjoying the music all interact and support one another.

Technique, harmony and theory are all important, but they grow much more naturally when they're rooted in that wider musical environment.

For me, the question isn't just, "What should I practise next?" It's, "What sort of musical environment am I creating for myself?" I suspect that's where a lot of long term progress really comes from.

[James W]

True - was it you who posted an earlier version of it? Can’t remember

It was PMB if I'm not mistaken.

[AllanAllen]

It’s the first few bars of the tune. In the original recording of four it’s Eb then Eb-7 Ab7. In the illegal real Book it’s Eb then Bb-7 Eb7.

Those changes don’t really work as subs. So when you are playing the tune it takes a minute where you are like ‘why does this sound like ass?’ And then you realise the other player is using the RB changes.

Another random gigging thing that happens.

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My legal realbook has the Bb- Eb7 move. Not saying you’re wrong. I’ll check out the recording on Workin’ and the Ammons one with Burrell on it. Then report back, I’m sure everyone will be holding their breath.

[ragman1]

Personally, I'd just play the version which sounded better. Not much point in playing the other one, is there?

[pamosmusic]

Personally, I'd just play the version which sounded better. Not much point in playing the other one, is there?

Playing the actual song would be the point?

[ragman1]

I withdraw my last post. I've just tabbed it out and tried both versions. I think it's pretty subjective. I'd say one was more interesting musically, and possibly 'jazzier', and the other one is more melodic and a better audience-grabber.

So it might not be a question of playing the 'better' one, it's more about how you want it to sound when played. Musicians would probably prefer the Ebm7 - Ab7 but an audience might respond better to the Bbm7 - Eb7.

I tabbed them in F but the difference is noticeable. It's midi so let's hope it comes out okay on your device (as they call everything these days).

[pamosmusic]

Did you listen to the recording?

[djg]

My legal realbook has the Bb- Eb7 move. Not saying you’re wrong. I’ll check out the recording on Workin’ and the Ammons one with Burrell on it. Then report back, I’m sure everyone will be holding their breath.

just because it is in a book doesnt say anything. if it is not a leadsheet by the composer it is not worth mentioning.