How to use Modes for playing real songs?

[pamosmusic]

When we have countless posts here, on Youtube, across the internet, and in the tomes of jazz instruction books that treat improvisation as a theoretical mental exercise--then yes, I think it's unreasonable to practice scales scales and imitate great musicians.

All of that instruction leads one to believe that the answer is just working on technique and learning more theory. I'm pissed off because I fell for that crap. I'm an analytical guy--to my own detriment. That perspective led to analysis paralysis and I wasn't imitating enough. I would listen to a phrase and say (Dr. Bunson voice) "Well, that sounds like an arpeggio from the flat seventh using the mixolydian scale. Okay, I can use that--NEXT!" I wouldn't wait to REALLY get the line under my fingers.



I mean, look at how most of you get when I used to talk about ear training--or now with my posts about rhythm. I truly believe that rhythm organizes and transforms everything I know into actual music. The raw metals and all that. But when I post my thoughts and pull videos from Youtube, many of you say "that's too complex, you just gotta feel it."

Back to the OP. Learn the phrases of musicians you love. Doesn't matter if it's a "modal" jam band or death metal. There are hidden lessons in these riffs, licks, and melodic invention that theory alone can't teach. Unfortunately, theory is so much easier to talk about. Harder to sit down with the music, shut up, and play.

I throw myself in that camp COMPLETELY. I've been learning Barry Harris material over Airegin for a couple of weeks now. I GOTTA LEARN WHAT SONNY ROLLINS PLAYED OVER HIS COMPOSITION!!! Yelling at myself here

Don't mean to be weird here, but there is a lot of instruction that doesn't sound like this at all. Rather than focusing on the stuff that's bad (of which there is a lot) -- maybe direct people toward the good stuff.

Christian has good stuff. Nathan Borton is often quite good. Loads of Barry content these days and some of his better disciples. There are lots of drummers teaching interesting things. I don't know -- I talk about rhythm and vocabulary an awful lot in my own teaching.

Sometimes it seems like we're setting up a bit of strawman** here just to knock it down.

(** not really a strawman, I guess, since it's very real. But the idea that there is nothing out there except the strawman, I think is not especially accurate)

This is a bit like walking around a baseball stadium during a game, complaining that there are too many non-players there. Don't know what to tell you. Not everyone who likes the game fields a ground ball all that well. If you want to be a good player, you should probably do that. Other people just want to argue stats. It's useful to know who you're talking to, and about what.

[AllanAllen]

Alright! Let me re-phrase. I want to sound like myself in a way that is at least satisfactory to myself.

Is this something that happens? I thought our curse was that the goalpost of 'sounding good' moved as we progressed.

[PickingMyEars]

"Just because it's popular, doesn't mean it's good pedagogy."

Read that in an article during a teacher professional development.

Unfortunately, what is popular often dictates what is heard by the masses.

In terms of jazz pedagogy, that is still chords scales and harmonic theory.

I'm not gigging as much as I used to--and even those gigs were small change.

That said, I still enjoy going to jam sessions and playing music with others--as does many of us here.

For people like me on the forum and elsewhere on the internet, our choice with jazz instruction is limited. Many people still approach Barry Harris's Method like a book of scales. Finding rhythm instruction that is as cohesive and deep as what is on offer for harmony is really hard to find on Youtube--I've been keeping a playlist just to amass something.

I think that's why getting 1-on-1 lessons and learning from friends in real life is so crucial. Otherwise, we are doomed to the algorithm. Otherwise, we are just dealing with empty rhetoric while keeping these old "pillars" of music alive and standing.

[AllanAllen]

I don't try to be super good, become professional or anything like that. I am sure if you are in that position there will be lots of stress making money out of music and competitions and criticisms which make your life miserable. And there are billions of guitarists even on youtube, who play like genius and divine having played from their early age all their life - you don't want to compete with the folks like that. It would be meaningless self harming act trying to compare my guitar playing with other folks like that.

As a "professional" musician. That's not really what the landscape is. You cold contact 100 venues by email or facebook message, 1 or 2 has interest in jazz, you book something 3 months out. That's the competition, who can send the most emails. You can play as great as anyone but if you don't hustle, the phone doesn't ring. There will be guys half as good as you sending more emails and playing for 3 beers and tips, that's why they're working more. Or the guy with an acoustic guitar and an iPad is friends with the bar owner so he gets all the Fridays. Whatever, it's out of your control, find another place.

Youtube is a grind, and I already have a job. I'm sure Christian can give you plenty of insight on running a monetized channel. I don't like to watch myself talk so I never went down that path, and I like my day job. So never looked into teaching either.

Criticism, I don't think I've ever had someone come up to me and tell me I wasn't any good. Once I posted a video of myself butchering Summertime and Ragman laid into me like he did to you on this thread. I was sloppy, rushed and didn't want to bother with another take. The criticism helped, but I know that tone isn't for everyone. I've also gotten at least one private messages about very specific flaws in my playing that I had no idea I was doing. Like sliding down the neck during a rest instead of resting, a habit I'm still trying to break at least a year later.

What was my point? Oh yeah, don't worry about competing with Tommy Emmanuel, Cecil Alexander, or Pasquale Grasso. They aren't thinking about you at all.

When the posts are about nothing to do with the actual topic itself and grossly negative and low quality in nature, you then start to analyze the hidden motives and possible negative intentions of the posts in psychological perspectives of the posters, which causes waste of time spiraling the thread into misunderstandings and misinterpretations, possible destruction of good will and motives for learning the original topic in the thread.

But this is when the forum gets fun. When everyone starts to disagree and civil debate happens. That's why I'm here 20 freaking times a day. I can't get any conversations like that in real life. I can't get musician peers to talk about their practice routine, or what tunes they are working on. Which is strange to me because all I do is practice guitar and I have 5-6 projects/goals that I'm always working towards.

[PickingMyEars]

But this is when the forum gets fun. When everyone starts to disagree and civil debate happens. That's why I'm here 20 freaking times a day. I can't get any conversations like that in real life. I can't get musician peers to talk about their practice routine, or what tunes they are working on. Which is strange to me because all I do is practice guitar and I have 5-6 projects/goals that I'm always working towards.

For me, the back and forth cues into my inner editor. As in, I am ALWAYS going back to edit my posts and clarify my thinking. The whole "but you're just NOT understanding me!" itch. If I'm not careful, that incessant attitude pulls me away from other things I should be doing--like practicing

[James W]

When we have countless posts here, on Youtube, across the internet, and in the tomes of jazz instruction books that treat improvisation as a theoretical mental exercise--then yes, I think it's unreasonable to practice scales scales and imitate great musicians.

All of that instruction leads one to believe that the answer is just working on technique and learning more theory. I'm pissed off because I fell for that crap. I'm an analytical guy--to my own detriment. That perspective led to analysis paralysis and I wasn't imitating enough. I would listen to a phrase and say (Dr. Bunson voice) "Well, that sounds like an arpeggio from the flat seventh using the mixolydian scale. Okay, I can use that--NEXT!" I wouldn't wait to REALLY get the line under my fingers.

I'm confused. How does it follow that learning scales and learning to imitate great musicians leads someone to treat improvisation as a theoretical mental exercise? If I've understood you correctly - are you actually saying that? Please clarify.

And I'm not sure how 'all of that' instruction (to which you are referring to practising scales and learning to imitate great musicians?) makes someone think that thee 'answer' is 'just' to work on technique and more theory.

I think generally practising should be a well-rounded thing. You need technique, there is no getting round that. But you also need great ears and there is no getting round that either. So where do you disagree with me? Are you saying that after a long time working on technique/analysis you decided to deep-dive on the imitating great musicians thing? Ok, but please be mindful that this might work for you, but not other people...

[ragman1]

Actually, modal playing is easy (!):

Get 3 unconnected chords. Any three, it doesn't matter, pluck them from the air. Here are three:

Ebm9
BM7#11
Dsus

Now work out what to play over them (these are my generalisations):

Ebm
G#m
Dm

Give each chord 2 bars and loop it creating a backing track.

Play it.

Modal music is like a colour wash, or a series of them. It's like an abstract painting, not a traditional picture. It's abstract music, if you want to put it that way. But I always think it should be played melodically. Wayne was good at making his tunes memorable.

See? Easy as pie :-)

[PickingMyEars]

I think we're going in circles here.

Theory can lead you to believe that deconstructing a solo to its harmonic elements is the pathway to building your own solo.

That arpeggios and scales are the answer. That labeling all the passing and approach tones are the answer. Enclosures. Modes.

Theory can lead you to believe that if you just understands these elements of analysis--you'll be able to create a great solo of your own.

Even with most of the Youtube Creators I follow--saxophone, guitar, trumpet, piano, bass, etc--they fall into that trap. You either accept that harmonic theory is the ONLY way to teach music, or you fight a war of attrition with the status quo.

Then you actually transcribe a solo of your favorite musician and realize that all that deconstruction and reapplication of harmonic principles STILL doesn't result in what made that solo memorable. Thus, pulling out those elements and superimposing them into your solo doesn't result in a cohesive solo either--voice leading be damned.

I'm on Youtube a lot these days. This is what I see.

[AllanAllen]

I think we're going in circles here.

Theory can lead you to believe that deconstructing a solo to its harmonic elements is the pathway to building your own solo.

That arpeggios and scales are the answer. That labeling all the passing and approach tones are the answer. Enclosures. Modes.

Theory can lead you to believe that if you just understands these elements of analysis--you'll be able to create a great solo of your own.

Even with most of the Youtube Creators I follow--saxophone, guitar, trumpet, piano, bass, etc--they fall into that trap. You either accept that harmonic theory is the ONLY way to teach music, or you fight a war of attrition with the status quo.

There's that Charlie Parker Quote

First you learn the instrument, then you learn the music, then you forget all that s**t and just play.

Scales and arpeggios are part of learning the instrument. Enclosures, modes and theory is part of learning the music. Then you get to playing. Unfortunately, most people quit or decide to be hacks before they get anywhere on the first step.

[James W]

I think we're going in circles here.

Theory can lead you to believe that deconstructing a solo to its harmonic elements is the pathway to building your own solo.

That arpeggios and scales are the answer. That labeling all the passing and approach tones are the answer. Enclosures. Modes.

Theory can lead you to believe that if you just understands these elements of analysis--you'll be able to create a great solo of your own.

Even with most of the Youtube Creators I follow--saxophone, guitar, trumpet, piano, bass, etc--they fall into that trap. You either accept that harmonic theory is the ONLY way to teach music, or you fight a war of attrition with the status quo.

Then you actually transcribe a solo of your favorite musician and realize that all that deconstruction and reapplication of harmonic principles STILL doesn't result in what made that solo memorable. Thus, pulling out those elements and superimposing them into your solo doesn't result in a cohesive solo either--voice leading be damned.

I'm on Youtube a lot these days. This is what I see.

Ok. Sounds a bit like you're shoehorning your bias against theory into the thread a bit IMO. Not sure what it has to do with the thread? (Or with practising scales...)

[PickingMyEars]

Yes, but scales and arpeggios aren't the end all be all. That is what harmonic theory teaches.

Feels like fighting a tide here

If you want to learn the music, go to the music.

That goes for jazz, country, blues, pop, classical--whatever.

I think academia has done more to ruin music than to elevate it. Feels weird to say as a teacher, but I think education isn't the real reason we "do school." Compliance and coercion, but that's a conversation to take elsewhere.

James, revisit my initial post about learning Eric Clapton and Iron Maidan. Being accused of "straw manning" and "shoe horning" is a bit frustrating when folks "cherry pick" from what I am saying. OP was asking about learning modes to play better solos, and how that translated to our studies of music. I was lending my frustration--I studied jazz performance in college and learned modes and harmony. Didn't make me a better musician--didn't make my playing any more musical.

Would be the same regardless of the genre of music I played.

[djg]

When we have countless posts here, on Youtube, across the internet, and in the tomes of jazz instruction books that treat improvisation as a theoretical mental exercise--then yes, I think it's unreasonable to practice scales scales and imitate great musicians.

you lost me there. what has youtube to do with anything? you listen to wes play something and it sounds so great that you keep thinking how great it must feel to *play* it. so you learn it. how is that unreasonable?

[James W]

Yes, but scales and arpeggios aren't the end all be all. That is what harmonic theory teaches.

Feels like fighting a tide here

If you want to learn the music, go to the music.

That goes for jazz, country, blues, pop, classical--whatever.

I think academia has done more to ruin music than to elevate it. Feels weird to say as a teacher, but I think education isn't the real reason we "do school." Compliance and coercion, but that's a conversation to take elsewhere.

Your eyes must have glazed over rather than actually reading my post where I say you have to imitate great musicians as well as practice scales.

[djg]

Then you actually transcribe a solo of your favorite musician and realize that all that deconstruction and reapplication of harmonic principles STILL doesn't result in what made that solo memorable. Thus, pulling out those elements and superimposing them into your solo doesn't result in a cohesive solo either--voice leading be damned.

of course it doesnt. just learn it and play the shit out of it. it's supposed to be fun.

[pamosmusic]

I'm on Youtube a lot these days. This is what I see.

Perhaps this is the problem?

[PickingMyEars]

@djg

Youtube is where a lot of people learn how to play jazz. Youtube and books. Private lessons can be cost prohibitive.

@James W

I didn't glaze over that comment--I responded to it. When we get so invested in scales and harmonic analysis, everything else gets filtered through that lens. You risk falling into the trap I described in a previous post. You risk falling into the habit of thinking that analysis = internalization. Just because we understand it, doesn't mean we can really own it. Doesn't matter if we are transcribing at the same time.

[pamosmusic]

@djg

Youtube is where a lot of people learn how to play jazz. Youtube and books. Private lessons can be cost prohibitive.

@James W

I didn't glaze over that comment--I responded to it. When we get so invested in scales and harmonic analysis, everything else gets filtered through that lens. You risk falling into the trap I described in a previous post. You risk falling into the habit of thinking that analysis = internalization. Just because we understand it, doesn't mean we can really own it. Doesn't matter if we are transcribing at the same time.

Who are "you" and "we" ?

[ragman1]

Once I posted a video of myself butchering Summertime and Ragman laid into me like he did to you on this thread. I was sloppy, rushed and didn't want to bother with another take. The criticism helped, but I know that tone isn't for everyone.

God, was it that bad? Sorry! I remember dithering over whether to do it in Am or Gm but the rest is blank. I think I saw a potential which you've amply proved you have. Gigs, own band. Good for you.

I shared a flat once with an old school mate. He was a good bloke and now and again talked about his ideas for the future. I asked him for the practical nitty griitty but he was uncharacteristically vague and the whole thing sounded a bit dreamy.

So at one point I said 'You know, it's sounding like you want the success without the work'. I wasn't being nasty to him, it was just an observation. He hit the roof. But in the end he went off to Dubai and married a divorcee with three kids. What can you do?

[djg]

@djg

Youtube is where a lot of people learn how to play jazz. Youtube and books. Private lessons can be cost prohibitive.

no, youtube is where a lot of people *try* to learn how to play jazz. did anyone ever suceed?

Then you actually transcribe a solo of your favorite musician and realize that all that deconstruction and reapplication of harmonic principles STILL doesn't result in what made that solo memorable.

man, this stuff is supposed to be fun.

[James W]

@djg

Youtube is where a lot of people learn how to play jazz. Youtube and books. Private lessons can be cost prohibitive.

@James W

I didn't glaze over that comment--I responded to it. When we get so invested in scales and harmonic analysis, everything else gets filtered through that lens. You risk falling into the trap I described in a previous post. You risk falling into the habit of thinking that analysis = internalization. Just because we understand it, doesn't mean we can really own it. Doesn't matter if we are transcribing at the same time.

Where did I state that I am so invested in playing scales etc? Or do you think that literally *any* scale practice is too much?

[Christian Miller]

only if they don't really like it

I like it plenty!

I don’t get many calls for it and it isn’t my priority to lead a project playing that type of music, believe or not. There’s only so much energy and time you have to focus on booking gigs and so on.

If someone asks me to play that stuff - awesome. It’s a type of classical music really.

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[grahambop]

you lost me there. what has youtube to do with anything? you listen to wes play something and it sounds so great that you keep thinking how great it must feel to *play* it. so you learn it. how is that unreasonable?

This is exactly how I taught myself to play jazz guitar. Go to the source.

Thank heavens youtube didn’t exist then, I would just get confused by it.

[James W]

This is exactly how I taught myself to play jazz guitar. Go to the source.

Thank heavens youtube didn’t exist then, I would just get confused by it.

On the contrary, I find youtube's slow-down function immensely useful.

Although I have transcribed stuff just from CD, I wouldn't've stood much of a chance with faster stuff I've taken from youtube since then.

[Christian Miller]

It’s never been easier to get things exactly correct. (So they tell me haha.)

This may be an issue in itself - some evolution in music might be down to getting it a bit wrong (Bruce Forman thinks so) … but YouTube is an insane resource if you are going to the source.

I don’t personally watch YouTube jazz tutorials (except for research on how to make better vids). But I try to make good ones.

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[Christian Miller]

As a "professional" musician. That's not really what the landscape is. You cold contact 100 venues by email or facebook message, 1 or 2 has interest in jazz, you book something 3 months out. That's the competition, who can send the most emails. You can play as great as anyone but if you don't hustle, the phone doesn't ring. There will be guys half as good as you sending more emails and playing for 3 beers and tips, that's why they're working more. Or the guy with an acoustic guitar and an iPad is friends with the bar owner so he gets all the Fridays. Whatever, it's out of your control, find another place.

Youtube is a grind, and I already have a job. I'm sure Christian can give you plenty of insight on running a monetized channel. I don't like to watch myself talk so I never went down that path, and I like my day job. So never looked into teaching either.
.

Everything’s a grind if you don’t enjoy it. Even then, every occupation involves less enjoyable stuff.

But, if YT feels ever a starts to feel like a grind, I think I’d do something else.

The depressing thing is there are people getting into YouTube now not because they want to enthuse about something, or share something they love, but to get money.

It took me years to even bother to monetise my channel.


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