How to use Modes for playing real songs?

[ragman1]

I only asked - do you understand Mode? If you do, how do you use it in playing the real music?

First, nothing I said to you was negative. It was true. I said, and I repeat it again, that there's no point in playing with modes unless you understand and can play the ordinary stuff first. Otherwise you have no foundation, no basis on which to build.

This is so obvious. If you can't play simple tunes how can you play complex ones?

Anyway, to answer your question: How do you use it in playing the real music?

Every chord can have a mode attached to it. A major chord can have a lydian, an augmented, a harmonic minor, and some others. Which one you choose is up to you. Which means you have to know how it sounds, what it feels like, and be able to play it and use it in the right place the right way.

But there are all the other types of chords as well, not just m7 and doms. There are chords you've probably never heard of. Every one of them has LOTS of possible modes you can play. Take just one, say Em7b5. You can play locrian, altered, dorian, harmonic minor, harmonic major, diminished, and so on.

And so it goes on. And even those modes can be modified. Do you think it's easy? You can listen to Noel Johnson twinkling away and think it's very pretty but he knows what he's doing. And how will you know how to add them to a tune unless you understand how to play that tune in the normal way first?

How do you use it in playing the real music? By experience, knowledge, listening, lots of practice, learning all the time. Probably by learning it one mode at a time.

So first learn the ordinary way of playing tunes, the standard rules of harmony, and so on. That's all I'm saying. That's all I've ever said. Then you can do the advanced stuff to your heart's content.

This isn't negative. It's not trying put you off, it's telling you the truth about it. What more can I do?

[ragman1]

Here's something I did for someone a few years ago using the dreaded Autum Leaves. It shows the normal way of soloing and then soloing using more than standard scales.

I didn't write in the names of the modes, I just put in the chord whose sound equates to them. For example Am6 over F#m7b5 is a locrian nat2. But I don't think overuse of the mode names is necessarily a good idea.

[ragman1]

Here's another one done even longer ago using Girl From Ipanema. The mode names are written in. There are several including phrygian.

Note these two examples are both very standard tunes, they're not the more modern tunes like Infant Eyes, Maiden Voyage, Blue In Green, and so on. They're played a little differently.

[ragman1]

Last advice. If you really want to start playing modes here's a backing track for So What. You don't need to play the tune, they do it for you.

It's 16 bars of Dm7, 8 bars of Ebm7, and 8 bars of Dm7. It repeats. You play D dorian (from the parent scale C major) and then Eb dorian (Db major). That's all.

If you get bored with that you can try D melodic minor and/or A wholetone instead. Same idea with the Ebm only up a half-step.

Then you'll definitely be playing modes on a real tune. Good luck to you :-)

[pauln]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just wanted to thank you for mentioning Bruce Foreman; I listened to a two hour interview and was amazed that of my contrary notions about learning and how to approach music and playing the guitar, he seems to be familiar with and supportive of that path - including some profound conclusions I'd not yet drawn from those notions.

[kris]

Cool. Best way to knock down a strawman is with a bigger strawman.

Lately I"ve been practicing modal tunes a lot...
If someone thinks that it is easy to play, it is not so obvious.
Seemingly an easy song, a simple melody and two simple chords...etc
I know about all the modes in the major, melodic, minor harmonic scales, etc.and differnt scales.
This knowledge is the basis for me.I use this knowledge in my daily practice – let"s call it theoretical knowledge.
When playing at a concert, I focus more on rhythm, phrasing and team cooperation.I want to build an interesting solo and for it to have the right tension.
I never said that theory is something bad.Practically all jazz is based on theory.You need to use it skillfully and constantly improve your level of playing the instrument.
Jazz is endless self-education.

[James W]

To GBRow: here is a post of mine from a few pages ago, which is still very much relevant and I hope is of some use to you.

Ragman may bang on about how insurmountably advanced modes are and modal harmony is but I don't think that's the case, at least not as a sweeping statement.

Forget Ragman's inane and unnecessary cooking metaphor. Beginners can learn modes, you need to learn the C major scale just in one position for now, and from day one I recommend singing everything you play. So learn to play the modes of C major and learn to sing them. Find backing tracks on youtube for each mode (C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian and B Locrian) and try playing over them.

So anyway, I highly recommend the book The Complete Guitarist by Richard Chapman. I think it's out of print but you can pick up really cheap copies (less than a fiver) online. This book taught me the rudiments of how to read music as well as a fair few chords and exercises for playing over changes etc. I think it is best for beginners because it doesn't assume anything, but you can dip into later chapters and more advanced stuff if you like. It doesn't go into that much depth, it's more of a broad overview which you can then use to identify areas of greater interest. I explored this stuff mostly by myself but if you can afford to have lessons, obviously do that. Otherwise, I am sure people here can be constructive in their advice (although some more than others!)

[grahambop]

The things that Noel Johnston guy is playing in that video are the sort of lines that I would play on one of those ‘floaty’ ECM-style tunes when there is a modal section within the tune. (John Abercrombie wrote some nice tunes like this, I do like that stuff!)

But it’s only one part of what I would play on a tune like that.

[ragman1]

I lived next to the Brighton Art College for several years and knew the jazz professor quite well. I promoted a show for him once. He let me sit in on various student sessions with visiting artists.

Nana Vasconcelos was terrific and there were a couple of concerts with Jan Garbarek. Martin Taylor floated by as well. I met him once sitting outside a cafe in Scotland and had a chat with him. He was just on his way to LA... :-)

[AllanAllen]

Not sure I know anyone who thinks music theory kills feel, but alright yeah man, cook.

Facebook groups are full of these people. Which makes me think they’re in the wild too.

[pamosmusic]

Facebook groups are full of these people. Which makes me think they’re in the wild too.

Or maybe they’re mostly in Facebook groups.

[charlieparker]

Just wanted to thank you for mentioning Bruce Foreman; I listened to a two hour interview and was amazed that of my contrary notions about learning and how to approach music and playing the guitar, he seems to be familiar with and supportive of that path - including some profound conclusions I'd not yet drawn from those notions.

Have a link?

[Litterick]

I have this book which writes about Modes, and it starts with Phrygian scale, and then Phyrigian Etude to practice.
No tabs, just the notes on staff.

It sounds not quite a tune or phrase, but some dissonant sound.
It then goes on to Aeolian scale and Aeolian Etudes ... so on and so forth.

How does the Mode practice assist / help / teach for playing the real songs?

You could look at Things We Said Today, the only Beatles song featuring the Phrygian mode. Here is a discussion. You could also look at the Fab Four's use of the Dorian and Lydian modes, and Mixolydian songs such as Taxman and Get Back. You will find a lot of help online.

[charlieparker]

I was listening to King Kong today with Jeff Lorber and Larry Koonse, a fusion tune, not sure of it is "modal" or not, but the really interesting bits to me were the rhythmic and phrasing elements which were pretty Jazz influenced.

In other words, like others have said, I don't think knowing the modes will get you that far. You have to learn some of the language, riffs, licks, and solos.

[ragman1]

In other words, like others have said, I don't think knowing the modes will get you that far. You have to learn some of the language, riffs, licks, and solos.

You're not allowed to say that, it's negative and unhelpful. The OP will think you're attacking him and operating from evil personal motives. No matter how nice you are.

The best thing is to throw all the intricate technical detail at him that you can. He won't know what you're talking about but he'll be very grateful you've answered his question :-)

[kris]

Social engineering in guitar playing - this has not been done yet.

[ragman1]

I'm not sure. I'm quite sure the music industry has used popular trends for their own ends. There's a fine line between fair marketing practices and subtle or overt manipulation for profit.

[kris]

There is always a chance to lock yourself in your own living room and play just for your own pleasure.
No one will even know that you are fighting with your own guitar.

[pauln]

I was listening to King Kong today with Jeff Lorber and Larry Koonse, a fusion tune, not sure of it is "modal" or not, but the really interesting bits to me were the rhythmic and phrasing elements which were pretty Jazz influenced.

In other words, like others have said, I don't think knowing the modes will get you that far. You have to learn some of the language, riffs, licks, and solos.

The original, 1969...

[AllanAllen]

You could look at Things We Said Today, the only Beatles song featuring the Phrygian mode. Here is a discussion. You could also look at the Fab Four's use of the Dorian and Lydian modes, and Mixolydian songs such as Taxman and Get Back. You will find a lot of help online.

Citing Ionian as a justification that Beatles used modes really hits me the wrong way.

At the same time, The Beatles heavily used the other diatonic scales and composed about eighty songs in Ionian, Aeolian, Dorian, and Mixolydian modes.

Also, were they thinking Phrygian, or using major III and major VI like old R&B bands did?

Am–Em⁷–Am or i–v⁷–i for lines 1, 2, 4
C–F–B? or III–VI–II for line 3

I think the this is giving the impression The Beatles chose to use modal harmony, but they were simply copying stuff they liked from songs they covered. The authors of those songs likely had no idea what a phrygian was.

This is exactly the case where I say you don't need theory. Hear something you like and just copy it, the why doesn't matter and the labels only muck the whole process up.

[pamosmusic]

Citing Ionian as a justification that Beatles used modes really hits me the wrong way.



Also, were they thinking Phrygian, or using major III and major VI like old R&B bands did?



I think the this is giving the impression The Beatles chose to use modal harmony, but they were simply copying stuff they liked from songs they covered. The authors of those songs likely had no idea what a phrygian was.

This is exactly the case where I say you don't need theory. Hear something you like and just copy it, the why doesn't matter and the labels only muck the whole process up.

Yeah Paul in particular was a student of the American songbook for sure. They were all into blues and folk music from the UK etc

Norwegian Wood for example feels more like a folk tune than a modal composition. Though pedagogy that teaches using folk music does require teachers to train on modes for that kind of reasin

[James W]

Struggling to see how labels muck the whole process up...

[pauln]

Struggling to see how labels muck the whole process up...

The things being labeled are sounds, so the labels serve as verbal conceptual proxies for the sounds. The potential for mucking the process up comes from trying to bypass how they sound when considering how to apply them where context is critical.

For example, here are five chords. They are badly named because I never name anything except when talking about why I don't do so. The fingerings are provided for clarity.

Experiment #1]
If you play them in order, all sounds good.

3 x 2 2 3 x G6sus2 (G69)4 x 3 4 5 x G#m6#5 (G#dim7 - #5 from WH)
5 x 5 5 5 x Am7
6 x 5 6 7 x A#m6#5
7 x 7 7 7 x Bm7


Experiment #2]
If you then play them in reverse order, all sounds good except the 4 x 3 4 5 x G#m6#5 (G#dim7 - #5 from WH).

Experiment #3]
However, if you just play the 3 x 2 2 3 x G6sus2 (G69), go up to the 4 x 3 4 5 x G#m6#5 (G#dim7 - #5 from WH), and return down to the 3 x 2 2 3 x G6sus2 (G69), then that sounds good.

Experiment #4]
Now repeat Experiment #2 but substitute any of these chords for the 4 x 3 4 5 x G#m6#5 (G#dim7 - #5 from WH). All these sound good.


x 3 4 3 4 x Cm7b5
x 3 4 3 6 x C7sus4b5
x 5 4 5 5 x D9
x 3 4 4 3 x D13/C
x 3 4 3 3 x Daug7/C
4 x 4 3 3 x G#7#11sus2 (Ddim7/C)
4 x 4 5 6 x G#13
4 x 4 5 3 x G#7#11
even
4 x 4 4 3 x G#m7#11

What kind of label for 4 x 3 4 5 x G#m6#5 (G#dim7 - #5 from WH) is going to inform you of the different results in the contexts of Experiments #1, #2 and #3, including why in Experiments #1 and #2 that same chord type sounds good in both directions as 6 x 5 6 7 x A#m6#5? What of the label might inform you that at least the nine chords I listed as subs for 4 x 3 4 5 x G#m6#5 (G#dim7 - #5 from WH) sound good when descending?

Verbal-logical conceptions as labels are fundamentally sequential modes of thinking which require some time to interrogate - to parse syntax, evaluate conditional operators, attach relevant relationships (other labels), and various additional mechanics. Methods and lessons depend on this approach because it can be written, read, and spoken.
Recognizing the sound of something directly is much more of a spatial mode of thinking in which the whole extent feels immediate and effortless, the sound itself is self-containing of its attributes and applications, presented without any sense of interrogation. This is difficult to describe in words but may be closer to how people actually grasp music; I prefer to be informed directly by the way these things sound.



edit: I'm not claiming to be muck up free...

[James W]

Paul, with respect, this convoluted post hasn't convinced me that the simple act of labelling a mode mucks things up. I like the irony that you are reduced to a word salad in order to demonstrate how unnecessary words are for naming particular sounds.

[pamosmusic]

Paul, with respect, this convoluted post hasn't convinced me that the simple act of labelling a mode mucks things up. I like the irony that you are reduced to a word salad in order to demonstrate how unnecessary words are for naming particular sounds.

Yeah, no idea what's going on up there.

I think probably I would say that Allan was referring to the likelihood that you come to Norwegian Wood by learning the mixolydian mode vs by listening to a ton of folk music for example. So reverse engineering the modes (even when the labels are accurate) might not really give you a tool that is likely to reproduce the end result.

Again, it doesn't mean that learning modes isn't useful. Just sometimes not in the way I want them to be.