How to use Modes for playing real songs?

[grahambop]

On the contrary, I find youtube's slow-down function immensely useful.

Although I have transcribed stuff just from CD, I wouldn't've stood much of a chance with faster stuff I've taken from youtube since then.

Yes I was thinking of all the lesson-type stuff on youtube really, there’s too much. I would probably have wasted time going down too many rabbit-holes.

For slowing tracks down, I used to put them on a tape recorder and run it at half-speed.

[ragman1]

I use Audacity. You can record what you want and slow it down without altering the pitch. You can also vary the sound quality, remove noise, and so on.

But also you can magnify the soundwave and focus very, very accurately on just one specific note and find out what it is. Or on a lick literally note by note till it's clear. It's very useful for accurate notation.

What it won't do, of course, is separate out the different instruments. You'd need a stem-splitter for that, like Logic Pro, but now I'm out of my league :-)

[pauln]

To the extent that doing something means learning,
does slow down transcribing teach not to hear fast?

[Christian Miller]

To the extent that doing something means learning,
does slow down transcribing teach not to hear fast?

If you don’t know a word you have to spell it out.


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[grahambop]

Even Charlie Parker used a record player with a speed adjustment to slow down Lester Young records so he could learn the solos, according to the Ross Russell bio.

[Christian Miller]

As I understand it the aim is to be able to hear things at full speed without slowing it down.

But there’s always stuff that I need to puzzle out in most solos. Less then there used to be.


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[James W]

Yeah I generally try to get what I can down at tempo before zooming in, so to speak.

But in transcribing something like Coltrane's 'Mars' I skip the above step...

[grahambop]

Pretty sure slowing stuff down didn’t hurt my ears, in fact I think it helped me learn to recognise typical patterns which I was then able to recognise at tempo.

[ragman1]

It never made any difference to me at all. Listen to it, try it out. If that doesn't work slow it down and get it that way then return to normal. No problem.

A lot of 'getting things' depends on familiarity, experience and recognition, as Graham said.

No reason for it to hurt anybody's ears unless one spends an inordinate amount of time doing it. Then, maybe. like close work making one short-sighted, it could begin to affect hearing - and possibly the ability to grasp things clearly at tempo. I don't know really.

[kris]

Exercising at slow tempos is a daily routine for me.All this helps you achieve the right tempo.

[GBRow]

Exercising at slow tempos is a daily routine for me.All this helps you achieve the right tempo.

Agreed. I do the same. I also try to play what I hear in mind for practice, rather than what is in the scorebook, which I videoed the effort.

[GBRow]

I agree with this youtbe guitar teacher's idea on Music Theory.

[pamosmusic]

I agree with this youtbe guitar teacher's idea on Music Theory.

Not sure I know anyone who thinks music theory kills feel, but alright yeah man, cook.

[kris]

Not sure I know anyone who thinks music theory kills feel, but alright yeah man, cook.

If you only think about theory while playing, it definitely kills the feel.

[pamosmusic]

If you only think about theory while playing, it definitely kills the feel.

Cool. Best way to knock down a strawman is with a bigger strawman.

[GBRow]

If you only think about theory while playing, it definitely kills the feel.

But he said that theory doesn't tell you what to play, or how to play. It tells why certain things work and sound good, when you are curious about it, so you can do it again with speed in the same or other keys with your own intention and speed rather than by accident.

[GBRow]

Not sure I know anyone who thinks music theory kills feel, but alright yeah man, cook.

If one doesn't know any theory, then there is nothing much to talk about music. Maybe you can keep telling how good your guitar looks cool, or just pick up the guitar and keep on playing Autumn Leaves melodies all your life.

[pamosmusic]

If one doesn't know any theory, then there is nothing much to talk about music. Maybe you can keep telling how good your guitar looks cool, or just pick up the guitar and keep on playing Autumn Leaves melodies all your life.

My point is that literally no one here (except I guess almost Kris) has said that theory is bad and kills your feel.

People are saying that modal theory is not especially helpful to someone who is hoping to learn some jazz standards, except in a narrowish set of circumstances.

Some people are even saying that *preoccupation* with theory can distract from more important things. Which is true, because I have been there and done that.

Pretty much everyone has said that theory is useful in other contexts. Pretty much everyone has said that more advanced players can make use of modal theory in the context of loads of tunes. Pretty much everyone thinks it’s good to know theory of harmony when you want to play some jazz.

You seem to be taking issue with a point that no one here is making.

[GBRow]

Cool. Best way to knock down a strawman is with a bigger strawman.

Yup, that sounded weird. Who would think about theories while playing?

[GBRow]

People are saying that modal theory is not especially helpful to someone who is hoping to learn some jazz standards, except in a narrowish set of circumstances.

Some people are even saying that *preoccupation* with theory can distract from more important things. Which is true, because I have been there and done that.

You seem to be taking issue with a point that no one here is making.

That was never the point I asked. Why do they think their experience would be same as others?
I only asked - do you understand Mode? If you do, how do you use it in playing the real music?
Either you say you do, and explain how you use it, or just keep silent move on to another topic, if you don't.
Why tell it is helpful or not helpful?

Your point seems to be out of focus from the issue.

[pamosmusic]

I don't think that's quite how I would characterize the responses, but if you really want to know how I use them in daily practice (to the extent that I do) ....

Modes and being familiar with the harmonic context of a chord can give you ... if you're playing All the Things You Are ...

The first chord is Fm7, which is I guess the Aeloian mode in the context of the tune ... so you can play Fm7, Abmaj7, Cm7, Eb7, Gm7b5, Bbm7, and Dbmaj7 over it, along with all the diatonic quartal voicings and stuff like that. These give you all those extensions that come with that --- 9, 11, b13

The second chord is Bbm7, which would the Dorian mode in the context of the tune ... so you can play Bbm7, Dbmaj7, Fm7, Abmaj7, Cm7, Eb7, and Gm7b5, along with all the diatonic quartal voicings etc. These give you all the Dorian extensions -- 9 11 13.

But the problem that folks are trying to illustrate to you is that those chords are the same chords. So you can't just play the mode over those two chords and expect to have anything particularly harmonically interersting. You could also play the Dorian mode over both, or the Aeolian over both, but they'll sound out of place in different ways. So this is objectively not the best or most efficient way to look at a tune until long after you're comfortable with the tune (and I wouldn't call it efficient even then).

Then maybe there is the Cmaj7 chord that comes at the end of that phrase -- you could play all the diatonic stuff (Cmaj7, Em7, G7, etc) from C Ionian, or you could play the diatonic stuff (Cmaj7, Em7 Gmaj7, etc) from C Lydian.

Probably the place this is most useful is dominant chords because of how many sounds are in common usage.

It can also be useful in tunes with complicated harmonies ... like exploring all the upper structures and things in the second phrase of Stella by Starlight (m. 9-16) can reveal some cool things like F, C#+, Dm, C#+, F, C#+ etc ...

This is a way to explore different sounds available over different chords, but it takes a lot of experience to know which of these upper structures are useful and when, and a lot of vocabulary to make even the least adventurous of them sound like music.

**disclaimer -- I am not recommending someone practice this way. In fact, I usually discourage it for a really long time. But this would be the answer to how I actually use this stuff. Though I also really don’t think much about modes and mode names I don’t guess. More about what chords give me what sounds. Which is six of one a half dozen of the other probably

Well ... I did post this several pages ago.

[GBRow]

Well ... I did post this several pages ago.

OK, thanks - I missed that. I didn't read all the replies due to some off topic unhelpful negative posts in this thread.
Well, killing the feel or not was not my point. It was the idea from the youtube guitar teacher in the video.

I just agreed with him saying - some knowledge of theory can't hurt for practicing and understanding why the techniques work, rather than blindly playing the tunes all day and all years with no knowledge why and how they work.

I wanted to understand Mode more, because Noel Johnston's books were very good, and his Etudes based on the Modes sounded cool and interesting.

I really didn't want any advice whether it was helpful or unhelpful learning it. It gave impression that they for some reason don't understand what Mode means, or how it works, and had bad experience learning it them to think they wasted time just because they don't understand it at all.

But everyone's experience and interest are different.

[pamosmusic]

But everyone's experience and interest are different.

Well if you’re asking for people’s experience and a lot of people are saying that it is counterproductive in their experience … well that’s an answer.

I’ll also say that there are some folks here (I can speak for myself and I know this is the case for Christian and a couple others) who are giving you their experience but also the experience of many dozens of their students. So there is also that.

Also — I mean — was my outline of how I use modes useful? Seems like we skipped it to go back to the argument part.

[GBRow]

Sure, I appreciated their advice even if I didn't agree, because they were positively put with sincerity.
But watch the videos by Noel Johnston working with Mode and making fantastic Jazz sound.
That is the kind of topics I am interested in.

[pamosmusic]

Sure, I appreciated their advice even if I didn't agree, because they were positively put with sincerity.
But watch the videos by Noel Johnston working with Mode and making fantastic Jazz sound.
That is the kind of topics I am interested in.

Okay … I mean he is using the modal dice roller, so he’s playing over vamps specifically designed for practicing modes. Which isn’t jazz tunes. So it is a bit of a different thing.

But if you want to know how I got better at playing stuff like that … it’s that I got this book and practiced it until I wore out two hard copies of it. I still practice it. Just don’t need the book anymore.

https://a.co/d/0cTrZ6UV

Several lifetimes worth of material in there.