How to use Modes for playing real songs?

[PickingMyEars]

Going back to "non-jazz" music.

I remember teaching guitar lessons when I was in high school. A student wanted to learn an Eric Clapton solo. I had already caught the jazz bug and thought, "Clapton ain't even a true blues musician. It's a blues, so he'll use a pentatonic or some shit." I was a Cream fan, but thought Clapton was over-rated.

Then I started listening and transcribing. I was HUMBLED. Who cared what scale he used. The riffs he wove into melodies. I couldn't do that with my jazz theory. I could try to describe the use of b5's and b3's here, but I would take away from the overall solo. Wish I remember what the song was.

Same thing happened to me when I transcribed Iron Maiden. Mixolydian and pentatonic or whatever. The theory couldn't build those melodies for me. Got me in the ballpark, but those riffs.

Then we get to jazz and throw complex chord scales at tunes and expect a miracle. I'm with Christian here. We have to learn the melodic riffs and puzzle pieces from listening to the music. Plus, only focusing on the scales neglects the RHYTHM.

Jerry Garcia sounded like Jerry Garcia because of his phrasing. That's a combination of melody and rhythm. Duane Allman the same--loved his playing! But even scales and arpeggios don't help.

Barry Harris helped me get to that realization, but even then. You gotta go back to the music. Bud Powell, Bird, all the Sonnys. I wasted so much time learning all the scales at the expense of imitating the musicians I loved.

[Christian Miller]

Does this mean Strat-itis has failed the Turing test?


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[James W]

I wasted so much time learning all the scales at the expense of imitating the musicians I loved.

Is it unreasonable of me to think it's important to practice scales AND practice imitating great musicians?

[GBRow]

I don't think I said I didn't want to play Jazz. If I could play, I would. But I am not at that level yet. So why not learn the easier and simpler songs such as folk or pop music with the jazz harmonization such as what Tommy Emmanuel does with his guitar playing. And progress into more challenging themes at later. That was what I meant. And that is why I wanted to learn about modes and harmonization in this thread.

So, there seem a lot of misunderstandings and misinterpretations on the posts going on here.

Not making big deal on anything, but was just saying some of the posts berating the OP "You cannot play guitar mate, so why ask such advanced topic." wasn't anything to do with the topic of this thread.

When the posts are about nothing to do with the actual topic itself and grossly negative and low quality in nature, you then start to analyze the hidden motives and possible negative intentions of the posts in psychological perspectives of the posters, which causes waste of time spiraling the thread into misunderstandings and misinterpretations, possible destruction of good will and motives for learning the original topic in the thread.

[dharma2020]

Is it unreasonable of me to think it's important to practice scales AND practice imitating great musicians?

When I go sit down and actually transcribe jazz solos from Grant Green, Wes and especially Charlie Christian I sometimes see some scalar ideas, but mostly I see Triads and building blocks like Blues Licks, Enclosures, Pivot Apeggios etc.. and a focus on outlining the chords.

I guess with more modern players it's different.

I'd say scales are a map and the music is the actual territory. It's good to have a map, but you dont need it to go explore the land. So there is a possibility of spending too much time reading maps ?

[James W]

When I go sit down and actually transcribe jazz solos from Grant Green, Wes and especially Charlie Christian I sometimes see some scalar ideas, but mostly I see Triads and building blocks like Blues Licks, Enclosures, Pivot Apeggios etc.. and a focus on outlining the chords.

I guess with more modern players it's different.

I'd say scales are a map and the music is the actual territory. It's good to have a map, but you dont need it to go explore the land. So there is a possibility of spending too much time reading maps ?

When I say 'scales' I mean extracting linear triads and seventh chord arpeggios from them, as well as intervals, among other things. These and chromatically embellished forms of these are most of what I practice when I practice a scale, along with the hexatonic form of the scale.

I like doing this but soon enough I'll start spending this time on linking scales based around a cadence rather than just doing the one (although I need to emphasise that I already practice linking scales in the context of tunes).

[GuyBoden]

When I say 'scales' I mean extracting linear triads and seventh chord arpeggios from them, as well as intervals, among other things. These and chromatically embellished forms of these are most of what I practice when I practice a scale, along with the hexatonic form of the scale.

That seems like an excellent plan for using modes, because I know you don't want to sound like authentic Bebop or Swing Jazz.

Keep up the good work.

[GBRow]

I'm not being negative about modal jazz BTW. I spend quite a lot of my playing life is spent improvising modally at the moment, not a million miles away from the Dead and Krantz etc etc. That's a style of music that really took off in the 60s with John Coltrane. Rock musicians were influenced by this new way of playing jazz without the old standards and song structures - for example, the track India on Live at the Village Vanguard back in 1960. (Trane was also a master interpreter of standards.)

Modal jazz as a movement begun by Miles Davis's music (esp Kind of Blue, but also on earlier records) in the very late 50s where people began to improvise on modal scales. They didn't do that (consciously) before then.

The modern theory of Chord Scales as used in jazz was formulated in the 1960s and became popularised especially in the 1970s and beyond. That's a bit different, because it shows how you can use chord scales to improvise on chord progressions, rather than just vamps.

For pop music which I think for most people is post-Beatles, you'll see a lot of modal influence from folk music, for example the bVII cadence which is found in the mixolydian and dorian modes. Those musicians didn't know the theory side of it - they were just moves they liked the sound of and heard in other songs. (And the Beatles were really eclectic in their listening.)



Actually most of my teaching life with adult students is spent getting them to STOP talking about theory and actually DO something. I do know a lot of music theory - ask anyone here. I know enough not to have too much respect for it.

There is no need to understand why something sounds good. The reasons cited are usually unsatisfying anyway, and lead to more questions in an intelligent student. This is a path best avoided - or at least not followed too far - if you ever actually want to, you know, play some music in a guitar lesson.



Beyond the physical ability to play their chosen instrument, what makes a musician a musician is in the ears. Theory is fine, but you need to hear this stuff, really. Otherwise it just comes across as a bit flat and lifeless. Calculated.

My priority is always to suggest people go to the music directly, and listen, work out and sometimes, get it wrong. Apprentice yourself to the music you love. Doesn't matter what it is, the path is always the same. Creativity stems naturally from this process. It isn't for most based on playing alphabetti spaghetti with chord scales.

Good musicians can do that - most people are not good musicians.

But they can learn to be. The ears, and learning to truly listen, are the way this is done. There is really no other route - doesn't matter what you play.

Great post. Yes, I see your point. Although different from my idea on the topic, I fully accept your ideas as something to consider when practicing and learning.
Your ideas come from real teaching, learning and playing experience, and you are a great musician and teacher from your excellent youtube channel.
And your sincere, constructive, positive points are welcome and much appreciated. Thanks.

[pamosmusic]

Is it unreasonable of me to think it's important to practice scales AND practice imitating great musicians?

So unreasonable.

[grahambop]

I don't think I said I didn't want to play Jazz. If I could play, I would. But I am not at that level yet. So why not learn the easier and simpler songs such as folk or pop music with the jazz harmonization such as what Tommy Emmanuel does with his guitar playing. And progress into more challenging themes at later. That was what I meant. And that is why I wanted to learn about modes and harmonization in this thread.

So, there seem a lot of misunderstandings and misinterpretations on the posts going on here.

It might help if you could give an example of Tommy Emmanuel playing the sort of thing you are referring to, you might get better advice that way.

I think half the problem is that it’s not clear exactly what kind of musical result you are trying to achieve.

[Christian Miller]

That seems like an excellent plan for using modes, because I know you don't want to sound like authentic Bebop or Swing Jazz.

Keep up the good work.

The funny thing is is that I don’t really play bop gigs. I have a straightahead jazz gig every couple of months maybe. Mostly it’s other stuff.

The path is not the destination.

Players study bebop for the same reason composers study fugue.

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[GBRow]

It might help if you could give an example of Tommy Emmanuel playing the sort of thing you are referring to, you might get better advice that way.

I think half the problem is that it’s not clear exactly what kind of musical result you are trying to achieve.

Sure. I just want to improve my knowledge and skills in music in general. I feel it is too early stage for me to say this style is what I want to achieve. I used to enjoy just playing along whatever music I like and can, and they were easy 3 chords pop and folk songs.

Blues music was possible playing along with the pentatonic box playing - and it worked ok. Although not sounding interesting or brilliant, the pentatonic box playing was quite enjoyable for me.

But I got bored with all that, and have been trying to learn music in more theoretical basis - knowing how to play properly and reading music scorebooks, hence I am back here.

I don't try to be super good, become professional or anything like that. I am sure if you are in that position there will be lots of stress making money out of music and competitions and criticisms which make your life miserable. And there are billions of guitarists even on youtube, who play like genius and divine having played from their early age all their life - you don't want to compete with the folks like that. It would be meaningless self harming act trying to compare my guitar playing with other folks like that.

Best thing with music is being able to enjoy what you play, no matter how bad you play, and looking for improvement.

In this thread, the only things I was wanting to know was how many folks actually use Modal Voicing and Modes in playing their music, and how they do it, because from the books it was all very abstract what they were talking about. Instead I got told "You cannot play guitar, why ask such advanced and useless topic.", so was a bit taken back on the replies, which caused the unnecessary and unhelpful posts which caused misunderstandings and misinterpretations and waste of time. We will get over it I am sure.

[James W]

That seems like an excellent plan for using modes, because I know you don't want to sound like authentic Bebop or Swing Jazz.

Keep up the good work.

I don't not want to sound like those things. I want to sound like myself.

How to explain this? Well, all my favourite jazz musicians can cut it playing standards, and/or cut their teeth playing bebop or at least some form of -bop. All the musicians on Bitches Brew, for example (with the possible exception of the percussionists).

Bebop is the foundation of modern jazz. And even if it wasn't, it is of surpassing value in and of itself and I love it. But the idea is you build upon the foundation, do something different with it, rather than simply trying to re-create it.

Does that make sense?

[Christian Miller]

I don't not want to sound like those things. I want to sound like myself.

I predict that you will whether you like it or not.


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[James W]

I predict that you will whether you like it or not.


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Alright! Let me re-phrase. I want to sound like myself in a way that is at least satisfactory to myself.

[pamosmusic]

The funny thing is is that I don’t really play bop gigs. I have a straightahead jazz gig every couple of months maybe. Mostly it’s other stuff.

The path is not the destination.

Players study bebop for the same reason composers study fugue.

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Brother, every gig I’m on is a bop gig whether they want it to be or not.

[Tal_175]

I don't not want to sound like those things. I want to sound like myself.

It's more like, you don't want to sound like you are trying to sound like somebody else?

[grahambop]

In this thread, the only things I was wanting to know was how many folks actually use Modal Voicing and Modes in playing their music, and how they do it, because from the books it was all very abstract what they were talking about.

OK, well if I’m playing standards/bebop type tunes which have lots of chord changes I won’t be thinking about modes much, the chord changes go too quickly for that. I’ll be thinking about melodic phrases linking the chord tones through common progressions like ii-V and so on.

If I’m playing post-bop tunes like Wayne Shorter etc. which have longer sections on one chord, then I’m more likely to think about creating lines within a mode on that chord. Especially as some of the more unusual chords in those kinds of tunes definitely imply a specific mode. (E.g. a maj7#11 chord implies a lydian mode, so I’d want to capture that sound on it.)

But it’s not always that simple, a lot of post-bop tunes feature a mixture of more standard (functional) harmony and some modal or non-functional harmony, so both approaches might come into play.

I also feel that learning bebop first gave me a good grasp of how to construct good melodic phrases, which is important whether I’m playing in ‘functional’ or modal contexts. I don’t think learning modes alone would have given me much help with that.

As to modal chords, I guess I don’t use those all that much. I do use quartal chords derived from the dorian mode sometimes, they can sound good in all sorts of tunes.

[Groyniad]

The funny thing is is that I don’t really play bop gigs. I have a straightahead jazz gig every couple of months maybe. Mostly it’s other stuff.

The path is not the destination.

Players study bebop for the same reason composers study fugue.

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only if they don't really like it

[pamosmusic]

In this thread, the only things I was wanting to know was how many folks actually use Modal Voicing and Modes in playing their music, and how they do it, because from the books it was all very abstract what they were talking about. Instead I got told "You cannot play guitar, why ask such advanced and useless topic.", so was a bit taken back on the replies, which caused the unnecessary and unhelpful posts which caused misunderstandings and misinterpretations and waste of time. We will get over it I am sure.

I don't think that's quite how I would characterize the responses, but if you really want to know how I use them in daily practice (to the extent that I do) ....

Modes and being familiar with the harmonic context of a chord can give you ... if you're playing All the Things You Are ...

The first chord is Fm7, which is I guess the Aeloian mode in the context of the tune ... so you can play Fm7, Abmaj7, Cm7, Eb7, Gm7b5, Bbm7, and Dbmaj7 over it, along with all the diatonic quartal voicings and stuff like that. These give you all those extensions that come with that --- 9, 11, b13

The second chord is Bbm7, which would the Dorian mode in the context of the tune ... so you can play Bbm7, Dbmaj7, Fm7, Abmaj7, Cm7, Eb7, and Gm7b5, along with all the diatonic quartal voicings etc. These give you all the Dorian extensions -- 9 11 13.

But the problem that folks are trying to illustrate to you is that those chords are the same chords. So you can't just play the mode over those two chords and expect to have anything particularly harmonically interersting. You could also play the Dorian mode over both, or the Aeolian over both, but they'll sound out of place in different ways. So this is objectively not the best or most efficient way to look at a tune until long after you're comfortable with the tune (and I wouldn't call it efficient even then).

Then maybe there is the Cmaj7 chord that comes at the end of that phrase -- you could play all the diatonic stuff (Cmaj7, Em7, G7, etc) from C Ionian, or you could play the diatonic stuff (Cmaj7, Em7 Gmaj7, etc) from C Lydian.

Probably the place this is most useful is dominant chords because of how many sounds are in common usage.

It can also be useful in tunes with complicated harmonies ... like exploring all the upper structures and things in the second phrase of Stella by Starlight (m. 9-16) can reveal some cool things like F, C#+, Dm, C#+, F, C#+ etc ...

This is a way to explore different sounds available over different chords, but it takes a lot of experience to know which of these upper structures are useful and when, and a lot of vocabulary to make even the least adventurous of them sound like music.

**disclaimer -- I am not recommending someone practice this way. In fact, I usually discourage it for a really long time. But this would be the answer to how I actually use this stuff. Though I also really don’t think much about modes and mode names I don’t guess. More about what chords give me what sounds. Which is six of one a half dozen of the other probably

[ragman1]

I don't think I said I didn't want to play Jazz. If I could play, I would. But I am not at that level yet. So why not learn the easier and simpler songs such as folk or pop music with the jazz harmonization such as what Tommy Emmanuel does with his guitar playing. And progress into more challenging themes at later. That was what I meant.

So far so good.

And that is why I wanted to learn about modes and harmonization in this thread.

If you are 'not at the level' of jazz yet why are you asking, repeatedly, about such an advanced level subject as modal harmony? And why are you, equally repeatedly, so utterly fixated on it and not listening to a word anybody is saying?

And why do you assume that 'what Tommy Emmanuel does with his guitar playing' has anything to do with modern modal harmony?

A lot of people ask how to spice up their usual folk/pop/blues playing with jazzy chords. Nothing wrong with that at all. You can turn your majors, minors and dominants into 7, 9, 11 and 13 chords, learn about tritone subs, and all that stuff.

But it has NOTHING to do with the extreme modal harmonization employed by Wayne Shorter and people like that. They're a million miles apart.

(Before that idiot James comes along and says they're related and similar, etc, of course they are. But I mean in terms of practical application and trying to understand the intricacies of it all from a completely inexperienced beginner's point of view) .

You want to learn cooking, right? So instead of getting a book about how to make a decent omelette, or a stew, or some other dish, you've unfortunately bought the wrong book. Your book is concerned with fine dining and Michelin star level haute cuisine. Never mind good old fish pie, you want to start with soufflés and perfect your consommé. And apparently you don't see the mistake.

I wish the hell you would.

Anyone would think I cared, I don't!

[James W]

Ragman may bang on about how insurmountably advanced modes are and modal harmony is but I don't think that's the case, at least not as a sweeping statement.

Forget Ragman's inane and unnecessary cooking metaphor. Beginners can learn modes, you need to learn the C major scale just in one position for now, and from day one I recommend singing everything you play. So learn to play the modes of C major and learn to sing them. Find backing tracks on youtube for each mode (C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian and B Locrian) and try playing over them.

So anyway, I highly recommend the book The Complete Guitarist by Richard Chapman. I think it's out of print but you can pick up really cheap copies (less than a fiver) online. This book taught me the rudiments of how to read music as well as a fair few chords and exercises for playing over changes etc. I think it is best for beginners because it doesn't assume anything, but you can dip into later chapters and more advanced stuff if you like. It doesn't go into that much depth, it's more of a broad overview which you can then use to identify areas of greater interest. I explored this stuff mostly by myself but if you can afford to have lessons, obviously do that. Otherwise, I am sure people here can be constructive in their advice (although some more than others!)

[pamosmusic]

Ragman may bang on about how insurmountably advanced modes are and modal harmony is but I don't think that's the case, at least not as a sweeping statement.

Forget Ragman's inane and unnecessary cooking metaphor. Beginners can learn modes, you need to learn the C major scale just in one position for now, and from day one I recommend singing everything you play. So learn to play the modes of C major and learn to sing them. Find backing tracks on youtube for each mode (C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian and B Locrian) and try playing over them.

So anyway, I highly recommend the book The Complete Guitarist by Richard Chapman. I think it's out of print but you can pick up really cheap copies (less than a fiver) online. This book taught me the rudiments of how to read music as well as a fair few chords and exercises for playing over changes etc. I think it is best for beginners because it doesn't assume anything, but you can dip into later chapters and more advanced stuff if you like. It doesn't go into that much depth, it's more of a broad overview which you can then use to identify areas of greater interest. I explored this stuff mostly by myself but if you can afford to have lessons, obviously do that. Otherwise, I am sure people here can be constructive in their advice (although some more than others!)

My wife teaches modes to her elementary schoolers, though she obviously doesn't call them that and she teaches them through songs.

Modes aren't super advanced. Their application in jazz is a little advanced.

[James W]

My wife teaches modes to her elementary schoolers, though she obviously doesn't call them that and she teaches them through songs.

Modes aren't super advanced. Their application in jazz is a little advanced.

I think it might be more accurate to say their application in jazz can be advanced. I would regard some modal tunes to be fairly beginner friendly, to the extent that any tune can be said to be beginner friendly...

[PickingMyEars]

Is it unreasonable of me to think it's important to practice scales AND practice imitating great musicians?

When we have countless posts here, on Youtube, across the internet, and in the tomes of jazz instruction books that treat improvisation as a theoretical mental exercise--then yes, I think it's unreasonable to practice scales scales and imitate great musicians.

All of that instruction leads one to believe that the answer is just working on technique and learning more theory. I'm pissed off because I fell for that crap. I'm an analytical guy--to my own detriment. That perspective led to analysis paralysis and I wasn't imitating enough. I would listen to a phrase and say (Dr. Bunson voice) "Well, that sounds like an arpeggio from the flat seventh using the mixolydian scale. Okay, I can use that--NEXT!" I wouldn't wait to REALLY get the line under my fingers.



I mean, look at how most of you get when I used to talk about ear training--or now with my posts about rhythm. I truly believe that rhythm organizes and transforms everything I know into actual music. The raw metals and all that. But when I post my thoughts and pull videos from Youtube, many of you say "that's too complex, you just gotta feel it."

Back to the OP. Learn the phrases of musicians you love. Doesn't matter if it's a "modal" jam band or death metal. There are hidden lessons in these riffs, licks, and melodic invention that theory alone can't teach. Unfortunately, theory is so much easier to talk about. Harder to sit down with the music, shut up, and play.

I throw myself in that camp COMPLETELY. I've been learning Barry Harris material over Airegin for a couple of weeks now. I GOTTA LEARN WHAT SONNY ROLLINS PLAYED OVER HIS COMPOSITION!!! Yelling at myself here