How to use Modes for playing real songs?

[ragman1]

Why isn't anyone discussing Blue In Green? Far more interesting. Then we can talk about modal and functional harmony in real terms.

[AllanAllen]

Why isn't anyone discussing Blue In Green? Far more interesting. Then we can talk about modal and functional harmony in real terms.

Because OP didn't say he was working on Blue in Green.

[ragman1]

Because OP didn't say he was working on Blue in Green.

Perhaps he should.

GBRow -

Try this for size. It's nice and short and you won't have to do Autumn Leaves after all



By the way, it's not in C major or A minor. It hasn't got a key signature at all.

[AllanAllen]

Wow, I set the playback speed up to 1.40 and
heard it throughout. My take what he's saying.

- modal is important (lots of musical solutions)
- three finger styles a problem (solved by four)
- position playing problems (solved by moving)

Maybe guitarist's should know with modes that
there might be some mechanical (fingering) as
well as conceptual (application) challenges, all
needing some prepatory thought and decision.

I watched this video too. While I don't see a need to focus on modes to play jazz lines over All of Me. I do see the benefit of doing the Frank Gambale scale workout for basic musicianship. Even building up these 24 scales in G would improve your coordination and overall fretboard dexterity. Then you start taking them through the 12 keys. Especially if you can get up to 125bpm, it's a 12 minute warm up.... if you can get there.

[GBRow]

The thread has diverge to discussing the BIG question "are modes a good way to acquire the skills to improv over Jazz standards?"

I think many posts on this thread are stating that "Authentic" Bebop and Swing language won't be gained by using modes.

Modes create a "Non-Authentic" improv over older Jazz standards. (IMHO)

Yes, "Non-Authentic" is very subjective.

All good.

Great post, thank you GB. I agree with you "Non-Authentic" or "Authentic" is very subjective.
What sounds standard to you, might sound boring to others, and vice versa.

Just because someone is playing non-authentic doesn't mean he is playing badly or not properly, and just because someone plays authentic, so doesn't mean he plays divine.

I heard songs which played perfectly, and sounded so boring I couldn't listen to. Have you heard some AI generated music?

Yet, I heard songs performed with loads of mistakes and wrong notes and wrong chords, but sounded so interesting and kept coming back listening to them. Listen to Grateful Dead and Wayne Krantz live performances.

But I feel that some posters here don't understand what even Modal Jazz means, and shout out negativity at the topic. I have a few theory books, and the best book I find on the topic is by Bert Ligon. The book title is "Jazz Theory Resources VOL2".

Mode is just different type scales in all 12 keys, and in different scales. If you knew them, it would be very useful for comping, and improvising.
IF you don't know it, then you cannot improvise using the scales. You have to be a bit creative using it. It is not just running up and down the notes in the scales.
But one good thing about mode is, if you know how to use it, you cannot play wrong notes during the improvising.

So it is a useful skill and knowledge to have. Of course, you don't need to know it or use it. But then your improvisation would be limited and you risk hitting the wrong notes in your impromptu improvisations.

If you are a totally self taught bedroom guitarist with no theory in your head, then you can still play good music, but you are limited to what you have noodled all your life. If you play Autumn Leaves for a months 8 hours a day, of course you would play with eyes closed and divine sounding. But is it really good fun to you? Other folks might say yeah he is good in playing Autumn Leaves, but what about suddenly you are asked to play a song you never heard of, requested by the audience, and your band members all know it, but you don't?

You will not be able to play it for sure. If you knew Modes, you would play it with the Modal scales listening to the melodic and chord progression.
This is what I read and understood so far, so it sounds like a useful topic to learn.

And anyone can learn about the theory if it interests them even if they are total newbie with no skills in playing the instruments, and understand it.
I don't think knowing some theories would affect one's playing in great deal either positive or negative way. But there is huge difference in playing with knowledge why and how it is being done, and with the blank mind why it sounds good.

I think the former position is more fulfilling and desirable than the later. Because the folks who plays great but no knowledge on the theory cannot teach. It is only the musicians with the theoretical knowledge can teach the students. That is why I don't feel it is good to just get a music teacher who plays the instruments great with no knowledge of the theory. He will just insist the student to pick up a guitar and play the old song like Autumn Leaves melodies for months and years without telling or explaining why things sound good when you do this or that. Students would get bored and disillusioned and give up with the teachers like that.

Anyhow, I feel it would be great to know and understand the modal voicing theory, because it would help making and pursue more interesting sounds even for later stage, when the student improves his playing.

I am not going to give up the topic which I was reading up just because some folks tell it is a useless topic, and will not help a single way for playing the instrument. There are many guitar books wholly dedicated to Modal Voicings and Harmonisation, and many folks seem to love them.

Thanks again for your reply. Your posts are always positive and constructive even if we don't agree with some points. But that's life.

[pauln]

You posted an Autumn Leaves video? I didn't catch that. I would have picked another tune as an example if I realized.

It's in Ear Training, Transcribing & Reading
AUTUMN LEAVES - PRACTICING EAR TRAINING

[pauln]

I watched this video too. While I don't see a need to focus on modes to play jazz lines over All of Me. I do see the benefit of doing the Frank Gambale scale workout for basic musicianship. Even building up these 24 scales in G would improve your coordination and overall fretboard dexterity. Then you start taking them through the 12 keys. Especially if you can get up to 125bpm, it's a 12 minute warm up.... if you can get there.

One of the things I noticed, maybe because I sped up the playback, is that at times I was reminded of the sound of Steve Howe. Maybe because of the stretchy fingering, maybe just the sound of the series of modes reminding me of progression changes.

[ragman1]

GBRow -

That was a very good, informed post. Excellent. But, my friend, it's all verbal. You may have got the idea verbally, intellectually, but we are guitar players here. The idea is to play the music. Otherwise what's the point?

By the way, can you read music?

[grahambop]

Incidentally GBRow doesn’t want to play jazz, he said so in post no. 75.

I believe he wanted to spice up some simple pop/folk songs with jazzier chords and a bit of modal improv, or something like that.

Also I think he said that he wants to play like Tommy Emmanuel one day(!)

Worth bearing in mind before we all pile on with more advice.

[Christian Miller]

Incidentally GBRow doesn’t want to play jazz, he said so in post no. 75.

I believe he wanted to spice up some simple pop/folk songs with jazzier chords and a bit of modal improv, or something like that.

Also I think he said that he wants to play like Tommy Emmanuel one day(!)

Worth bearing in mind before we all pile on with more advice.

I’d probably give similar advice tbh. Songs are songs, even in a modal progression it's important to learn to outline the chords, and listen to your favourite musicians. All the great rock players do that stuff, for example. They probably don't even know they're playing changes haha.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ragman1]

Incidentally GBRow doesn’t want to play jazz, he said so in post no. 75.

I believe he wanted to spice up some simple pop/folk songs with jazzier chords and a bit of modal improv, or something like that.

Also I think he said that he wants to play like Tommy Emmanuel one day(!)

I know.

Worth bearing in mind before we all pile on with more advice.

I was. Jazzy chords is one thing, modal improv is something else :-)

[Christian Miller]

The thread has diverge to discussing the BIG question "are modes a good way to acquire the skills to improv over Jazz standards?"

I think many posts on this thread are stating that "Authentic" Bebop and Swing language won't be gained by using modes.

Modes create a "Non-Authentic" improv over older Jazz standards. (IMHO)

Yes, "Non-Authentic" is very subjective.

All good.

I mean you can be an authentic post-modal improviser. We've been on this track (in jazz) for 70 years now lol, that's longer than the tradition before modes.

Thing is - I think there's a lot of cats out there who've learned the system (tm) who aren't even aware they are playing in a style haha. They've gone through the system and learned to throw the "hip" notes on chords. The modal approach in jazz creates a style distinct from the older approaches to music. You can hear it quite clearly if you know the music. The Boston accent as I like to call it :-)

That's a bit different to making a conscious choice out of what you hear.

Music is ultimately about the ears. I don't have a problem with modes. It's not the best way to go for the majority of western music IMO. There are forms that use modes a lot, and actually modern rock is one.

[Christian Miller]

Great post, thank you GB. I agree with you "Non-Authentic" or "Authentic" is very subjective.
What sounds standard to you, might sound boring to others, and vice versa.

Just because someone is playing non-authentic doesn't mean he is playing badly or not properly, and just because someone plays authentic, so doesn't mean he plays divine.

I heard songs which played perfectly, and sounded so boring I couldn't listen to. Have you heard some AI generated music?

Yet, I heard songs performed with loads of mistakes and wrong notes and wrong chords, but sounded so interesting and kept coming back listening to them. Listen to Grateful Dead and Wayne Krantz live performances.

But I feel that some posters here don't understand what even Modal Jazz means, and shout out negativity at the topic. I have a few theory books, and the best book I find on the topic is by Bert Ligon. The book title is "Jazz Theory Resources VOL2".

I'm not being negative about modal jazz BTW. I spend quite a lot of my playing life is spent improvising modally at the moment, not a million miles away from the Dead and Krantz etc etc. That's a style of music that really took off in the 60s with John Coltrane. Rock musicians were influenced by this new way of playing jazz without the old standards and song structures - for example, the track India on Live at the Village Vanguard back in 1960. (Trane was also a master interpreter of standards.)

Modal jazz as a movement begun by Miles Davis's music (esp Kind of Blue, but also on earlier records) in the very late 50s where people began to improvise on modal scales. They didn't do that (consciously) before then.

The modern theory of Chord Scales as used in jazz was formulated in the 1960s and became popularised especially in the 1970s and beyond. That's a bit different, because it shows how you can use chord scales to improvise on chord progressions, rather than just vamps.

For pop music which I think for most people is post-Beatles, you'll see a lot of modal influence from folk music, for example the bVII cadence which is found in the mixolydian and dorian modes. Those musicians didn't know the theory side of it - they were just moves they liked the sound of and heard in other songs. (And the Beatles were really eclectic in their listening.)

Mode is just different type scales in all 12 keys, and in different scales. If you knew them, it would be very useful for comping, and improvising.
IF you don't know it, then you cannot improvise using the scales. You have to be a bit creative using it. It is not just running up and down the notes in the scales.
But one good thing about mode is, if you know how to use it, you cannot play wrong notes during the improvising.

So it is a useful skill and knowledge to have. Of course, you don't need to know it or use it. But then your improvisation would be limited and you risk hitting the wrong notes in your impromptu improvisations.

If you are a totally self taught bedroom guitarist with no theory in your head, then you can still play good music, but you are limited to what you have noodled all your life. If you play Autumn Leaves for a months 8 hours a day, of course you would play with eyes closed and divine sounding. But is it really good fun to you? Other folks might say yeah he is good in playing Autumn Leaves, but what about suddenly you are asked to play a song you never heard of, requested by the audience, and your band members all know it, but you don't?

You will not be able to play it for sure. If you knew Modes, you would play it with the Modal scales listening to the melodic and chord progression.
This is what I read and understood so far, so it sounds like a useful topic to learn.

And anyone can learn about the theory if it interests them even if they are total newbie with no skills in playing the instruments, and understand it.
I don't think knowing some theories would affect one's playing in great deal either positive or negative way. But there is huge difference in playing with knowledge why and how it is being done, and with the blank mind why it sounds good.

I think the former position is more fulfilling and desirable than the later. Because the folks who plays great but no knowledge on the theory cannot teach. It is only the musicians with the theoretical knowledge can teach the students. That is why I don't feel it is good to just get a music teacher who plays the instruments great with no knowledge of the theory. He will just insist the student to pick up a guitar and play the old song like Autumn Leaves melodies for months and years without telling or explaining why things sound good when you do this or that. Students would get bored and disillusioned and give up with the teachers like that.

Actually most of my teaching life with adult students is spent getting them to STOP talking about theory and actually DO something. I do know a lot of music theory - ask anyone here. I know enough not to have too much respect for it.

There is no need to understand why something sounds good. The reasons cited are usually unsatisfying anyway, and lead to more questions in an intelligent student. This is a path best avoided - or at least not followed too far - if you ever actually want to, you know, play some music in a guitar lesson.

Anyhow, I feel it would be great to know and understand the modal voicing theory, because it would help making and pursue more interesting sounds even for later stage, when the student improves his playing.

I am not going to give up the topic which I was reading up just because some folks tell it is a useless topic, and will not help a single way for playing the instrument. There are many guitar books wholly dedicated to Modal Voicings and Harmonisation, and many folks seem to love them.

Thanks again for your reply. Your posts are always positive and constructive even if we don't agree with some points. But that's life.

Beyond the physical ability to play their chosen instrument, what makes a musician a musician is in the ears. Theory is fine, but you need to hear this stuff, really. Otherwise it just comes across as a bit flat and lifeless. Calculated.

My priority is always to suggest people go to the music directly, and listen, work out and sometimes, get it wrong. Apprentice yourself to the music you love. Doesn't matter what it is, the path is always the same. Creativity stems naturally from this process. It isn't for most based on playing alphabetti spaghetti with chord scales.

Good musicians can do that - most people are not good musicians.

But they can learn to be. The ears, and learning to truly listen, are the way this is done. There is really no other route - doesn't matter what you play.

[pamosmusic]

But I see many musicians using the modal scales for comping and arranging with more interesting harmonies. If one can utilise the concept in that way, it looks also very useful too. Negative views on the topic seems coming from those who don't understand or appreciate the concept which is widely used and looks very useful, which is quite shocking.

I would be curious to know which ones and in what context.

Im a full time teacher and I use modes a decent bit in my own playing and practicing.

I have seen fit to teach them very very seldom.

I can play quartal inversions in whatever key on whatever string set you like, upper structures in whatever mode my little heart desires, so I’m perfectly capable of assessing their utility. You’re getting mostly good advice here. You just don’t seem interested in taking what you asked for.

[pamosmusic]

Incidentally GBRow doesn’t want to play jazz, he said so in post no. 75.

I believe he wanted to spice up some simple pop/folk songs with jazzier chords and a bit of modal improv, or something like that.

This is true … and it’s probably equally unhelpful in that context.

And by post 75 it’s sort of taken on a life of its own either way

[AllanAllen]

Thing is - I think there's a lot of cats out there who've learned the system (tm) who aren't even aware they are playing in a style haha. They've gone through the system and learned to throw the "hip" notes on chords. The modal approach in jazz creates a style distinct from the older approaches to music. You can hear it quite clearly if you know the music. The Boston accent as I like to call it :-)

This is something I brought up before. These leading edge guys who raise their nose to swing and bebop are merely preservationists of a genre that's 80 years old instead of 90. Not much has changed. Like, we're all in the same boat here.

[djg]

These leading edge guys who raise their nose to swing and bebop are merely preservationists of a genre that's 80 years old instead of 90.

who are these people?

[pamosmusic]

This is something I brought up before. These leading edge guys who raise their nose to swing and bebop are merely preservationists of a genre that's 80 years old instead of 90. Not much has changed. Like, we're all in the same boat here.

I’m sure these people exist but I haven’t met any too worth remembering.

You should hear Ben Monder or Nir Felder play at Bar Next Door.

[Christian Miller]

This is something I brought up before. These leading edge guys who raise their nose to swing and bebop are merely preservationists of a genre that's 80 years old instead of 90. Not much has changed. Like, we're all in the same boat here.

No that's NOT what I meant. I'm not really talking about anyone 'leading edge' in the sense I'd understand it. Those are all people who have found their own thing. TBF I don't think you get to be an actual working jazz guitarist (in any style or level) unless you are a highly self-motivated musician who loves and listens to the music.

This is probably a self selecting thing, because most people would probably rather do something else.

Sorry to single someone out - but I have heard Tom Quayle honestly say some stuff about jazz guitar in interviews that goes so completely against my understanding of what the art is, it leaves me slightly depressed that anyone could think that's what it is.

I don't mean that as a dig against him - he's great at the fusion shred stuff, I can't play like that. And he was not being derogatory about jazz at all, quite the opposite - but what I took from that is that the education system seems to be giving at least some people who come out of honest-to-god jazz degrees the impression that jazz is an intellectual system and the best people at jazz are those who have mastered this intellectual stuff to the highest level. Chord scale theory, melodic minor modes, etc.

TBH I had this misconception for years, I'm sad to say. It's easy to get that from the books and courses that are out there if you haven't actually met many jazz musicians.

It doesn't help that jazz is hard to learn (or at least harder to fake), and so much contemporary jazz in particular is rather heavy on the complexity side of things which feeds into that characterisation esp. at music college and so on. But - I resist the suggestion that modern players are all somehow 'soulless' and I've certainly never had any contemporary/modern jazz guitarist I know turn their nose up at the history of the music. Plenty from the other side tho...

[pamosmusic]

But - I resist the suggestion that modern players are all somehow 'soulless' and I've certainly never had any contemporary/modern jazz guitarist I know turn their nose up at the history of the music. Plenty from the other side tho...

If you mean you’ve known more trad, swing, and bebop heads who turn their nose up at modern stuff then I’d second that one for sure

Your median Woody Shaw fan can probably sing West End Blues … not sure your median swing jammer is as well versed on Solid.

[AllanAllen]

who are these people?

People in Facebook jazz groups, the crème de la crème.

[Strat-itis]

In my view there are several ways modes are used, and they get conflated to globally criticize them.

Tonal uses

1. The modes are the harmonized major scale in scale form.

This is very beneficial to know. You must know the harmonized major scale in order to assimilate tonal harmony: Cmaj7, D-7, E-7, etc. The modes are simply this but built in 2nds rather than 3rds. They're great for understanding the full tonality of the diatonic chord you're on. While only using this reference does not sound good. You need the jazz application on top of that.

2. Modes can be used as substitute scales in tonal playing to spice things up, without going overboard. Modes are often great scales to use in authentic jazz playing. Whether it's Dorian for the subdominant chord, or a melodic minor mode for a dominant chord. Again, it's best to defer to what's actually heard in jazz, not just stick whatever scale on its associated chord.

Modal uses

1. Songs with only a chord or 2 and a single mode is used for them. So What.
2. A-functional tonality with lots of modal chords. Flamenco Sketches.

So modes are useful for a lot of things. It's probably wise to use them in musically accurate ways tho. Which is why most people discourage beginners from getting mode books, wanking some modes, and thinking that's jazz. Jazz is the actual harmonic vocabulary, not sticking whatever exotic scale on the tune, although interesting sounds are a part of it.

[Strat-itis]

By the way, can you read music?

He's been playing 4 months bro.

[AllanAllen]

In my view there are several ways modes are used, and they get conflated to globally criticize them.

Tonal uses

1. The modes are the harmonized major scale in scale form.

This is very beneficial to know. You must know the harmonized major scale in order to assimilate tonal harmony: Cmaj7, D-7, E-7, etc. The modes are simply this but built in 2nds rather than 3rds. They're great for understanding the full tonality of the diatonic chord you're on. While only using this reference does not sound good. You need the jazz application on top of that.

2. Modes can be used as substitute scales in tonal playing to spice things up, without going overboard. Modes are often great scales to use in authentic jazz playing. Whether it's Dorian for the subdominant chord, or a melodic minor mode for a dominant chord. Again, it's best to defer to what's actually heard in jazz, not just stick whatever scale on its associated chord.

Modal uses

1. Songs with only a chord or 2 and a single mode is used for them. So What.
2. A-functional tonality with lots of modal chords. Flamenco Sketches.

So modes are useful for a lot of things. It's probably wise to use them in musically accurate ways tho. Which is why most people discourage beginners from getting mode books, wanking some modes, and thinking that's jazz. Jazz is the actual harmonic vocabulary, not sticking whatever exotic scale on the tune, although interesting sounds are a part of it.

Did you…. did you just change my mind with ChatGPT?

[Strat-itis]

I drafted that 100% myself. And you're welcome.