How to use Modes for playing real songs?

[GBRow]

Interesting that you posted the Grateful Dead’s Jack Straw. I accidentally stumbled into modes trying to play Grateful Dead music. I realized that when the Dead were jamming endlessly over a a static chord say A7 that a D major scale would get me close to what Garcia was doing. Only later did I learn that was the mixolydian mode* I also stumbled upon the Dorian mode in the same manner.

However, the four chord jam in Jack Straw can’t be negotiated effectively by playing one mode. Need to address the chord tones.

* A prime example of using your ear first and then let the music theory explain it later

Is that you playing in the example above? If so, may I humbly suggest that you get a looper. Then you can lay down the four chords to the Jack Straw jam and then endlessly noodle over it without all the clashing from the recorded track. Then again the clashing could be a hint. For Jack Straw an A major scale will get you close but paying attention to chord tones will always work.

Yes, that was a while back when I was practicing for pop and blues music. Now I stopped doing that, and just have been playing scales and harmonies from the books.
I would like to play like Tommy Emmanuel one day just any songs - folk, blues, pop, jazz or carols sounding different and interesting by sight reading or listening to the singer one day in the far distant future.

I like Grateful Dead songs, because they sound different from other bands - could it be due to their jazzy lead guitar off Garcia? Maybe, they just sound and play different, and that's so cool. Pity that they are no longer playing live.

I thought if I knew modal jazz voicings better, then Jack Straw could be comped more interesting way. But then Garcia seemed to have just played the lead guitar as he pleased with no set notes and no traditional music theory applied - they never played same tune twice even for the same song, which made them so cool.

I think I am going to just practice scales and phrases for a couple of years, while practicing simple jazz standard melodies too and see what happens.

[GuyBoden]

Why do you find the book the best for Modal Jazz? How is the book different from other zillions of jazz books?

I am more into Modal Jazz theory because my interest is not actually jazz itself as such, but trying to learn how to play plain songs such as pops, blues or folk using jazz harmonization to make them sound different.

With jazz harmonization and added tensions, even Silent Night song sounded different and interesting in David Berkman's book.

Personally, I don't think you have the knowledge to achieve your objectives, without getting a good Jazz Teacher.

Contents of "Modal Jazz Composition and Harmony Vol1" by Ron Miller's book is the Bible for "Modal Jazz".


Ron Miller's book is not about noodling in "D Dorian" over "So What" or Impressions etc.

[GBRow]

Personally, I don't think you have the knowledge to achieve your objectives, without getting a good Jazz Teacher.
.

Yes, that is ok by me. It is not life or death mission. I have my clear objectives, and will do my best for the goal with what is available for me - the books and noodling.
If I get there, that would be good. If not, then I still would have had good time practicing and learning music.

The Ron Miller book looks interesting, and different from other books in that it is for COMPOSITION in the title. I might get the book.
Thanks for your recommendation of the book.

[AllanAllen]

Most people have forgotten what "Modal Jazz" was.

Rock players started using Modes, and that is where the confusion started from, when applying these Rock Modes to Jazz.

Dude, for real. Did OP even say what modal song they were trying to play? Modes are useful on very specific tunes, otherwise you are shoehorning theory in where it's not needed.

Outside of a handful of tunes, modes are basically snake oil for patreon subscriptions. OP doesn't need them for jazz and their brother in law who plays classical doesn't know what he's talking about.

[James W]

Dude, for real. Did OP even say what modal song they were trying to play? Modes are useful on very specific tunes, otherwise you are shoehorning theory in where it's not needed.

Outside of a handful of tunes, modes are basically snake oil for patreon subscriptions. OP doesn't need them for jazz and their brother in law who plays classical doesn't know what he's talking about.

What makes you think all of this, Allan?

[Strat-itis]

Gonna second AA here. Yes, going about your learning independently is often part of the journey, but it's unproductive when you use poor material. It's very hard to know what you don't know at that stage, so it's wise to take advice about what material to focus on to start being musical. You don't want to focus on modal study. Yes, they are the harmonized major scale in scale form rather than chord form, and yes some of them are used in tonal playing, but you don't want to make them the main focus when beginning.

[Strat-itis]

I am more into Modal Jazz theory because my interest is not actually jazz itself as such, but trying to learn how to play plain songs such as pops, blues or folk using jazz harmonization to make them sound different.

Then you DEFINITELY don't want to focus on the modes. Jazz's sound comes from internalizing the actual harmonic language, not grafting modal theory onto unrelated tunes. You have to learn about the actual music to get there.

[AllanAllen]

What makes you think all of this, Allan?

Which part?

That OP hasn't said what modal song they're learning? They haven't, they're taking advice on how to play jazz from their classical musician brother in law. Always consider the source of advice.

That shoehorning modes into a ii V I is over-complicating things? I mean, figure out on your own why D dorian to G mixolydian to C ionoian is over-complicating things.

That modes aren't as useful as youtube makes it seem? I'm up to 111 tunes in my repertoire and I think about modes for 3(so what, maiden voyage, and milestones). They're overblown because they are easy to discuss online and easy to fit into an 11 minute video.

Why can't a classical player give advice on how to play jazz? Because they told OP to focus on modes for better lines instead of vocabulary and ear training.

[wolflen]

I just read part of Millers book the Intro and a few chapters..

His approach is far more than playing "modes"..its an outline for harmonic relationships in styles and functions in jazz compositions.

He stresses the study of classical composers, using the piano as a compositional tool and knowing the works of modern jazz composers.
He mentions the work of Wayne Shorter..ALOT.

I reflected on the work of Brad Mehldau, Ben Monder, Herbie Hancock, and of course Bill Evans. All have classical backgrounds.

This book is not a casual read for beginners. Having several years of of playing and some composing and knowing the advanced harmonic structures and devices in jazz would be a great help in working with the Miller book.

[AllanAllen]

I just read part of Millers book the Intro and a few chapters..

His approach is far more than playing "modes"..its an outline for harmonic relationships in styles and functions in jazz compositions.

He stresses the study of classical composers, using the piano as a compositional tool and knowing the works of modern jazz composers.
He mentions the work of Wayne Shorter..ALOT.

I reflected on the work of Brad Mehldau, Ben Monder, Herbie Hancock, and of course Bill Evans. All have classical backgrounds.

This book is not a casual read for beginners. Having several years of of playing and some composing and knowing the advanced harmonic structures and devices in jazz would be a great help in working with the Miller book.

Call me crazy, but if OP can't play a rudimentary solo over Autumn Leaves or I've got Rhythm, they shouldn't be messing with Wayne Shorter, Ben Monder and Bill Evans.

Unless Miller is OP's classical playing brother in law. This stuff can come later once, they can play over some simple tunes.

Everyone want's to start on 3rd base...

[GBRow]

Then you DEFINITELY don't want to focus on the modes. Jazz's sound comes from internalizing the actual harmonic language, not grafting modal theory onto unrelated tunes. You have to learn about the actual music to get there.

Thank you for your advice. I think Modal Harmony looks very useful part of Jazz Theory, and will keep on practicing and learning it along with the simple and easy songs. Music learning is not just learning songs or just reading up books, but both could be done complimenting each other for even just change rather than getting bored from one type of practice.

It already allowed me understand how chords are built. And even that alone was worth reading about the topic.

But I see many musicians using the modal scales for comping and arranging with more interesting harmonies. If one can utilise the concept in that way, it looks also very useful too. Negative views on the topic seems coming from those who don't understand or appreciate the concept which is widely used and looks very useful, which is quite shocking. It is in every Jazz Theory books. How could it be not useful? How could it be unimportant?

I just asked for some opinion about it, but it seems quite a controversial topic. There is no need for attacking beginner asking for some opinions. That is a negative standard of mentality, which is not helpful at all.

[GuyBoden]

Dude, for real. Did OP even say what modal song they were trying to play? Modes are useful on very specific tunes, otherwise you are shoehorning theory in where it's not needed.

Outside of a handful of tunes, modes are basically snake oil for patreon subscriptions. OP doesn't need them for jazz and their brother in law who plays classical doesn't know what he's talking about.

The real fault is Teaching modes to play older Jazz Standards, because it's the wrong (or long) approach in my opinion.

The Ron Miller book shows how to compose using "Modal Jazz" techniques, which is very different from the composing techniques used for the older Jazz Standards we all know and love.

But, what is the OP really asking?, maybe, it's simply recomposing pop songs using "Modal Jazz" techniques.

I am more into Modal Jazz theory because my interest is not actually jazz itself as such, but trying to learn how to play plain songs such as pops, blues or folk using jazz harmonization to make them sound different.

[James W]

Which part?

I told you, all of it.

That OP hasn't said what modal song they're learning? They haven't, they're taking advice on how to play jazz from their classical musician brother in law. Always consider the source of advice.

That shoehorning modes into a ii V I is over-complicating things? I mean, figure out on your own why D dorian to G mixolydian to C ionoian is over-complicating things.

That modes aren't as useful as youtube makes it seem? I'm up to 111 tunes in my repertoire and I think about modes for 3(so what, maiden voyage, and milestones). They're overblown because they are easy to discuss online and easy to fit into an 11 minute video.

Why can't a classical player give advice on how to play jazz? Because they told OP to focus on modes for better lines instead of vocabulary and ear training.

The way I see it, modes are just one means of generating lines and vocabulary. I don't think they're over-complicating things. In any case, the generating of them doesn't happen in real time, generally speaking. No one thinks 'D Dorian G mixolydian C Ionian' while they're actually playing. I don't know how useful 'youtube' makes modes seem. But I do know that I use them for more than the three tunes you mention - I also use them for 'Four', 'Stella By Starlight', 'All The Things You Are' etc. Perhaps I have been influenced in this by reading Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book early on.

I don't think simply focusing on modes will automatically create better lines. But I do think learning about modes and using them to train your ears is a good thing e.g. if you sing the altered scale AKA the last mode of the melodic minor except keep returning to the root between every other note (so G altered would go - G, Aflat, G, Bflat, G, Cflat etc.) that's just one way of using them profitably.

I'm still not sure why you vehemently denounce modes as snake oil when learning about them is good and they have been a part of jazz for a long time. Just learn them alongside other approaches.

I like modes and find them useful for extracting all sorts of harmonic ideas over songs. John McLaughlin and Mike Stern would agree (among others).

[AllanAllen]

In the context of OP's question, don't start with modes, it's a bad place to start.

They aren't the be all end all place for beginners to start. It's like the first thing people try to learn when they start to study jazz and I don't think it should be.

Can you use them? Sure, but you can also use this grip as a D7

46x577

but its not a good place to start.

[Strat-itis]

I just asked for some opinion about it, but it seems quite a controversial topic. There is no need for attacking beginner asking for some opinions. That is a negative standard of mentality, which is not helpful at all.

I thought I gave you my opinion without attacking you. You seem to have a good perspective on learning music, especially for a beginner. You're right that it's good to learn subjects in parallel. I'm just saying that in jazz, it's about learning the harmonic language accurately, not superimposing scales inaccurately. And then especially with approaching pop tunes, you don't want them to sound all weird, unless that's your goal to make them sound exotic. What makes jazz sound like jazz is the actual harmonic language, not modes. Although modes are part of it so that will be beneficial if you study them some.

[AllanAllen]

GBRow I'm also not attacking you, but the common trap beginners fall in. (myself included here)

If you have a different opinion on anything I'm saying please speak up. I'm very interested in a conversation that challenges my opinions. I was happy that James asked for more context and this is a very good idea that goes against my thinking. It's actually going to be what I warm up with tonight.

I don't think simply focusing on modes will automatically create better lines. But I do think learning about modes and using them to train your ears is a good thing e.g. if you sing the altered scale AKA the last mode of the melodic minor except keep returning to the root between every other note (so G altered would go - G, Aflat, G, Bflat, G, Cflat etc.) that's just one way of using them profitably.

[GBRow]

Saying OP cannot even play Autumn Leaves properly sounded a bit like attacking or character assassination type of comment. But I wasn't taking it seriously. I just thought, that I have not been coming here to show off my playing, which is absolutely newbie stage.

I was just uploading the practice videos for my own reference for later, trying to find out where to improve, and reflecting maybe 10 years later what level I was at.

Another point is that Jazz standard songs are not my style or preference of music. I decided to practice them because one day this January to start actually practice and learn Jazz style music reading and studying books being able to read music, which before I couldn't do.

I have now 3-4 Jazz Theory books, and they all have large portions of the book dedicated to Modal Harmony, and thought they are important part of the Theory, otherwise why would they allocate substantial pages of the books for the topic.

Anyhow, yeah, not too worry. It was just passing impression on the playing skills comment. If I were even intermediate player, I wouldn't bother reading any books, coming to the beginner forums asking daft questions. I am a newbie who registered to the forum last Autumn, and found out OMG, maybe this is not for me. All sounded too advanced stuff, and better just go and practice pop songs. I disappeared for a few months playing pop and blues songs, but I got bored with them.

This January, I returned to here to learn to read music, and learn the theory and harmonisation.

I find this forum a great place to share the ideas and information on the subject, and sometimes different ideas can clash, and may cause emotional hiccups, but nothing serious. It was just a passing comment, so hope we could carry on with discussion on the topics - The Jazz Theory.
Many thanks for your ideas, opinions and advices. Much appreciated.

It is good that I now know that Theory is not everything like I thought before this thread. There are people who happily practice and play Jazz guitar without using Modal Voicings and Harmonisations, and play music professionally and highly enjoyable. This is also a valuable lesson for me.

[wolflen]

This January, I returned to here to learn to read music, and learn the theory and harmonisation.

I find this forum a great place to share the ideas and information on the subject, and sometimes different ideas can clash, and may cause emotional hiccups, but nothing serious. It was just a passing comment, so hope we could carry on with discussion on the topics - The Jazz Theory.
Many thanks for your ideas, opinions and advices. Much appreciated.

It is good that I now know that Theory is not everything like I thought before this thread. There are people who happily practice and play Jazz guitar without using Modal Voicings and Harmonisations, and play music professionally and highly enjoyable. This is also a valuable lesson for me.[/QUOTE]


You may find this interesting. This would be how to use modes in a MODAL progression. This guy is GOOD

[AllanAllen]

Saying OP cannot even play Autumn Leaves properly sounded a bit like attacking or character assassination type of comment. But I wasn't taking it seriously. I just thought, that I have not been coming here to show off my playing, which is absolutely newbie stage.

I was just uploading the practice videos for my own reference for later, trying to find out where to improve, and reflecting maybe 10 years later what level I was at.

Another point is that Jazz standard songs are not my style or preference of music. I decided to practice them because one day this January to start actually practice and learn Jazz style music reading and studying books being able to read music, which before I couldn't do.

I have now 3-4 Jazz Theory books, and they all have large portions of the book dedicated to Modal Harmony, and thought they are important part of the Theory, otherwise why would they allocate substantial pages of the books for the topic.

Anyhow, yeah, not too worry. It was just passing impression on the playing skills comment. If I were even intermediate player, I wouldn't bother reading any books, coming to the beginner forums asking daft questions. I am a newbie who registered to the forum last Autumn, and found out OMG, maybe this is not for me. All sounded too advanced stuff, and better just go and practice pop songs. I disappeared for a few months playing pop and blues songs, but I got bored with them.

This January, I returned to here to learn to read music, and learn the theory and harmonisation.

I find this forum a great place to share the ideas and information on the subject, and sometimes different ideas can clash, and may cause emotional hiccups, but nothing serious. It was just a passing comment, so hope we could carry on with discussion on the topics - The Jazz Theory.
Many thanks for your ideas, opinions and advices. Much appreciated.

It is good that I now know that Theory is not everything like I thought before this thread. There are people who happily practice and play Jazz guitar without using Modal Voicings and Harmonisations, and play music professionally and highly enjoyable. This is also a valuable lesson for me.

I apologize, I really don’t want to put anyone down. Even though I sometimes mess up and do.

The point I wanted to make was. Guy Boden isn’t wrong, but he might be giving advice too soon. IF you can’t play over basic things like Autumn Leaves, but I don’t know if you can or not.

[ragman1]

GBRow -

It's about time this farce came to an end. You can't really play the guitar. You don't like jazz. You want to do pop songs. On your video you strummed some basic chords and fell apart at about 3.30. The single notes you were playing were neither here nor there because you'd no idea what you were doing.

You might not like this but it's a fact. No one's attacking you. Allan was talking to someone else when he said 'the OP can't even play a rudimentary version of Autumn Leaves' which is no more than the truth. In fact, I doubt you can play any jazz tune at all because you want to play pop songs.

You're like a kid who reads elementary books and suddenly announces that he's interested in Shakespeare, Chaucer and TS Eliot. He can't do it.

You want to do calculus when you can't do basic equations. You want to speak fluent German when all you've read is a phrasebook.

Modal harmony is like that. You're trying to run before you can barely walk. It may intrigue you intellectually but you have no foundation to build on.

No one is attacking you so stop playing the victim. Either start learning seriously in a structured, meaningful way or go to a pop song forum and play the stuff you really like.

[AllanAllen]

[James W]

GBRow -

It's about time this farce came to an end. You can't really play the guitar. You don't like jazz. You want to do pop songs. On your video you strummed some basic chords and fell apart at about 3.30. The single notes you were playing were neither here nor there because you'd no idea what you were doing.

You might not like this but it's a fact. No one's attacking you. Allan was talking to someone else when he said 'the OP can't even play a rudimentary version of Autumn Leaves' which is no more than the truth. In fact, I doubt you can play any jazz tune at all because you want to play pop songs.

You're like a kid who reads elementary books and suddenly announces that he's interested in Shakespeare, Chaucer and TS Eliot. He can't do it.

You want to do calculus when you can't do basic equations. You want to speak fluent German when all you've read is a phrasebook.

Modal harmony is like that. You're trying to run before you can barely walk. It may intrigue you intellectually but you have no foundation to build on.

No one is attacking you so stop playing the victim. Either start learning seriously in a structured, meaningful way or go to a pop song forum and play the stuff you really like.

Very provocative, but do you have the musical skill yourself to support this teacher-like telling off of GBRow?

Methinks not.

[Strat-itis]

GBRow -

It's about time this farce came to an end. You can't really play the guitar. You don't like jazz. You want to do pop songs. On your video you strummed some basic chords and fell apart at about 3.30. The single notes you were playing were neither here nor there because you'd no idea what you were doing.

You might not like this but it's a fact. No one's attacking you. Allan was talking to someone else when he said 'the OP can't even play a rudimentary version of Autumn Leaves' which is no more than the truth. In fact, I doubt you can play any jazz tune at all because you want to play pop songs.

You're like a kid who reads elementary books and suddenly announces that he's interested in Shakespeare, Chaucer and TS Eliot. He can't do it.

You want to do calculus when you can't do basic equations. You want to speak fluent German when all you've read is a phrasebook.

Modal harmony is like that. You're trying to run before you can barely walk. It may intrigue you intellectually but you have no foundation to build on.

No one is attacking you so stop playing the victim. Either start learning seriously in a structured, meaningful way or go to a pop song forum and play the stuff you really like.

Sick em rag.

[GuyBoden]

I like modes and find them useful for extracting all sorts of harmonic ideas over songs. John McLaughlin and Mike Stern would agree (among others).

Yes, many, many great players use Modes as their basic foundation for playing Jazz. Personally, I think using modes is the long way (or wrong way) to learn playing improv over older Jazz standards.

I watched Alessio Menconi play over the weekend, he also was using Modes in his workshop lessons, but he also has an extremely good ear, knowing the name and sound of every note on the fretboard, which he subsequently demonstrated. Very impressive player.

[James W]

Personally, I think using modes is the long way (or wrong way) to learn playing improv over older Jazz standards.

How come?

I watched Alessio Menconi play over the weekend, he also was using Modes in his workshop lessons, but he also has an extremely good ear, knowing the name and sound of every note on the fretboard, which he subsequently demonstrated. Very impressive player.

Yeah he's great. I think you need very well developed ears whether you use modes or not.