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I have this book which writes about Modes, and it starts with Phrygian scale, and then Phyrigian Etude to practice.
No tabs, just the notes on staff.
It sounds not quite a tune or phrase, but some dissonant sound.
It then goes on to Aeolian scale and Aeolian Etudes ... so on and so forth.
How does the Mode practice assist / help / teach for playing the real songs?
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03-30-2026 07:36 PM
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I was about to say get a new book. But how about … what book is this?
Originally Posted by GBRow
Modes are not entirely useless in jazz, but they’re a very strange place to start and a lot of beginner material for a while there was starting in that mode-centered way.
And as an inoculation against the inevitable tangents this thread will produce — chord scale theory is quite useful in a lot of contexts and was the way I learned. It has its drawbacks but so do other things. The presentation in a lot of learning material, though, is chord scale theory in kind of its least interesting and useful form.
And to answer that last question directly … “How does the Mode practice assist / help / teach for playing the real songs?”
It very much depends on the song, but for the vast majority of the standard jazz repertoire people are learning in their first few years, it really doesn’t.
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When I teach..every now and then the question "How do you use modes?" comes up.
I usually ask..why do you need to use modes? and the reply goes something like this..
"Well, I saw this guitar god on YouTube playing very fast and he said it was some kind of Lydian mode...
and I want to learn how to play like that.."
At best for new players..modes are confusing..when pointed out that the basic Major scale has 7 modes in it
the look of wonder and confusion meld.
There has to be a reason to delve into the arcane approach to using a "scale" that has notes in it
that reflect the melodic/harmonic section of a tune in a unique way.
Some begin this teaching method by playing a mode over a chord to demonstrate the sound of it over the chord.
I begin with basic triads with a with a different bass note..ahh yes..slash chords D/E and use the D Lydian dominant over it
Then just changing the bass note to show the effect it has on the chord and the mode. Then C/D and so on
This is one technique that is used in the "fusion" style. It often has no tonal center but a series of chords ..this is often described as a modal progression.
Over such a progression different modes may be used to generate tension. These modes may not have any relation to the chord they are playing over
in this style of composition. The melody also may be played over chords that create tension..and may be resolved at unexpected points in the progression.
There are other uses of modes in different styles of music..here is where some research and study are going to be required to understand the dynamics of modes
in a more conventional harmonic setting--standards and pop tunes.
To fully understand the function of Modes-How Where When to use them will take a good amount of study in harmony and its various devices.
Counter point
Pedal point
Contrary motion
Symmetric harmony and more
A good teacher based in the above subjects is advised to unravel some of the mystery and confusion that the term Modes often brings with it.
Thats my take on the subject.
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Forget modes unless you're trying a modal tune. The difference is that in ordinary music the key is usually clear and you play to that and within that.
Say you had the chords Dm - G7 - CM7 at the end of a tune, you'd play a nice line to end on the C, right? You don't analyse it into Dorian, Mixolydian and Ionian, you just play what sounds good, the idea being to make nice music.
But say you had one of those modal tunes (if you've ever tried one) that has disjointed chords all over the place which sound great but don't seem to have any real tonal center then you can consider what notes you'll have to use to get the right harmonies. Depending on the tune you may literally have to approach it one chord at a time. If you investigate it you'll find each chord has its own scale, mode or arpeggio, and so on.
But ordinary tunes, don't bother. Find the way they're usually played and just do that.
Put it another way, I'm writing this. I'm absolutely not asking myself which is the subject, verb and object of everything because it's ridiculous and would just mess with my head. What's important is to state clearly what I'm trying to say. Similarly with what you're playing musically. The idea is to make nice music, not drive yourself potty with theory.
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Might as well jump on the bandwagon. I don’t really think about modes unless we get a request for So What.
I’m moving towards arpeggios/chord shapes and away from scales.
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Okay, actually the one you really need -- by which I mean the scale you sort of need to be able to apply to a specific chord and for which it is faster to know its specific name than to back hack to its relative major scale -- is the mixolydian mode or the dominant scale or whatever you call it.
But otherwise I stand by my original post.
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+1 on "get a new book." STARTING with Phrygian mode is really suspect. It's like trying to get an infant to ride a bike before they have developed sufficient balance to stand, let alone walk or run. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Yeah, that's pretty odd considering that is probably the least useful mode of them all. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
It's useful to know how they relate to chords, that's about it.... lydian mode for the maj7 chord (I^7 or IV^7), mixolydian for the V7 chord, dorian or aeolian (or phrygian if at all) for the min7, and locrian for the m7b5 chord.
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Exactly. To you it's just a weird sound because you don't understand what you're hearing or what to do with it. But you will. But not straight away. Originally Posted by GBRow
As for tabs, jazz doesn't do tabs, it does notes. Get over it, that's the way it is.
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I’m curious about what book this is. Is it for jazz musicians?
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If a method sux then don't do it lol.
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It is "Modal Etudes" by Noel Johnston Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Amazon.co.uk
Correction on the OP - the book has TAB and standard notation.
It is a cool book actually. The Etudes get interesting and exotic sounding after awhile after getting used to them.
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Aha Noel. I know his YouTube channel Originally Posted by GBRow
He’s never come across as a ‘this is how to play Autumn Leaves’ guy
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Yes, I agree with you. He plays and teaches the interesting sounding tunes. I found him via Youtube recommendation. After listening a while, ended up buying the book as well. At first they sound dissonant, but as getting used to the tunes, they sound cool, interesting and exotic. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Some of the tunes remind me of Wayne Krantz.
But yes, it is not something which are similar to or resembles the familiar standard tunes. I was wondering if practicing and learning these Etudes would help playing the other standard music. Or would they be in their own separate field.
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Well yeah then there you go. Might be a great book. Won’t get into All the Things Yiu Are Originally Posted by GBRow
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"Modes" are how I was taught.
At first, using "Modes" over each chord in a Jazz Standard sounds really terrible, then after 10+ years of continually playing these "Modes over chords" your ears get normalised to these terrible sounds.
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It would be good stuff to mix with Autumn Leaves and All The Things You Are Not? Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Cool. I think I will keep on giving goes at it when bored with practicing Autumn Leaves. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
"Modes" are how I was taught.
At first, using "Modes" over each chord in a Jazz Standard sounds really terrible, then after 10+ years of continually playing these "Modes over chords" your ears get normalised to these terrible sounds.
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I think what Wayne Krantz was saying was, You Need Theory. But after playing 50+ years, you don't.
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Then it's probably not jazz. I'm not being snobby but, per the video, he's not exactly playing Autumn Leaves :-) Originally Posted by GBRow
That's about the Wayne Kranz vid. Well, you've said it yourself.But yes, it is not something which are similar to or resembles the familiar standard tunes. I was wondering if practicing and learning these Etudes would help playing the other standard music. Or would they be in their own separate field.
Rock uses modes and fusion is similar. As he says, the idea is to provide tension which resolves, much like conflict is the essence of a good story. But it's the way it's played that's different from style to style.
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This is how to do it. Sheer professional brilliance. It's not just 'using modes', it's knowing which notes are the ones you want and sticking them in in the right way. Personally, I think he overdoes it a bit but there you are.
And apparently you can get a TAB from the transcriber too :-)
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Many Jazz books have TAB as well as standard notations. Some don't. The former seem to help for practicing for the beginners coming from pop music guitarists. Originally Posted by ragman1
When there is no TAB, sometimes the standard notations in the books could be overwhelming and impossible even to try to practice, and just left in the bookshelves unused for years.
Autumn Leaves is a standard tune for Jazz, and maybe it is too easy for him.
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Yes, he is one of the masters. I have one of his books. Originally Posted by ragman1
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I can think of 4 ways practicing modes helps for playing real songs: Originally Posted by GBRow
1. Some real songs explicitly are written in a mode (e.g., Flamenco Sketches is based on the Phrygian mode, So What is based on Dorian). Practicing those modes gets the sound in your ears and gives you vocabulary for soloing on those tunes.
2. Playing a mode instead of a conventional scale can be a pathway to more outside/extended vocabulary. The classic example is substituting Lydian for major. Also stuff like Messiaen modes. If you practice these things, they start to seep into your soloing intentionally rather than accidentally.
3. Though I don't do this much anymore, for a long time I would regularly play all the modes of the major and minor scales, 4-note harmonized scales of that, and 4 note arpeggios of that in all 12 keys. It's a good pathway to deeply ingrained knowledge of the fingerboard and of 4-note voicings of all the types of 7th chords.
4. Specifically going through the modes of the altered dominant scale (as well as other altered dominant exercises), is a good way to drill dominant chord and ii-V vocabulary with a lot of direct application to tunes.
All that said, not everyone does find these things like this useful, and there's no rule that says to play jazz you have drill modes. But drilling something other than just major and minor scales from the roots is generally a good thing.Last edited by John A.; 03-31-2026 at 10:57 AM.
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I have to be honest, I haven't bought a jazz book in years. None of them, I'm fairly sure, had TAB. There are reasons for this. There is a certain stigma against it but the chief reason is that if you're good enough to do jazz then it's assumed you'll find your own fingering. Originally Posted by GBRow
As you know, notes can be played on the guitar in different places. The problem with TAB is it lays down a particular fingering and some players might find it awkward but think it must be right because it's written in the book. Not so, the best fingering is what comes most easily to the player. Some people have very thin, spindly fingers that can zoom about like nobody's business whereas others have thicker fingers. But there are always the exceptions, of course.
As a matter of interest, a lot of classical guitar music has fingering put into in certain places that might confuse the player. They use the PIMA symbols and other symbols for the strings and positions. But classical music doesn't allow spontaneous embellishment like jazz does.
I absolutely agree, some heads, usually bebop, are extremely demanding but I think one is expected to approach them slowly and work them out. Personally, I tend to avoid them but they can be quite popular :-)
But let's be honest, it's a great advantage to be able to read music. The problem with TAB is that it encourages dependency on it and, speaking personally, I think it's a very good idea to get away from it as soon as possible. If one ever starts with it at all.
Sounds like I hate it, doesn't it? I don't, I'm just seeing the pros and cons, that's all.
It wasn't too easy for all the master players!Autumn Leaves is a standard tune for Jazz, and maybe it is too easy for him.
Any tune is what you make of it. If it's too easy, change it. Make a modern version of it.
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