How to use Modes for playing real songs?

[pauln]

Mechanically,
modes are inversions of scales in which the tonic is reassigned to conceive the inverted scale as a new uninverted scale, but they only exist if they know about them.

Mathematically,
every mode is a subset of as many notes in its parent scale so a phrase (a proper subset of a mode) may be a subset of modes of other parent scales.

Musically,
we all play things all the time that could be mechanically or mathematically observed and described with the theory of modes, whether we know or not.

[Christian Miller]

Jazz musicians don’t play modes. They play septatonic random access pitch sets

Not the same thing at all


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[Mick-7]

It is "Modal Etudes" by Noel Johnston Amazon.co.uk

Correction on the OP - the book has TAB and standard notation. It is a cool book actually. The Etudes get interesting and exotic sounding after awhile after getting used to them.

Oh, it's based on using chords from modes, not scale tones.... that can generate interesting chord voicings, but scales other than the major scale, such as melodic and harmonic minor, are a richer source for them.

[PickingMyEars]

Yes of course, I know that piece of equipement.

The Random Note Generator (RNG). You give it a scale set and let 'er rip.

Predates Chat GPT, Grok, and LLM. Arnie Schoenbergie secretly had one in his front pocket.

All bullshit aside, I spent a good part college learning modes. Even better, I practiced them against a drone.

I learned Greek enough to order the best back in Astoria, Queens. But all those modes didn't help me solo any better on jazz standards. Not in the classroom or the local jam session.

Hunt and peck didn't even work with all the ear training I did. Licks were cliched and I wanted to be original. Unfortunately, originality still lives within the pulse of musical time. Hunting, pecking, and searching screws with your rhythmic feel. Once you set the tempo, you can't pause mid performance to find your muse. My Random Note Generator didn't work, no matter what mode I programed into my fretboard.

Learn modal phrases. Coltrane played phrases over Impressions, more so than all 1-2-3-5 would have us believe. Same with Miles. I wish I got hip to Barry Harris and learning phrases sooner. Popped on the old Sound Cloud and my playing was embarrassing even 6 years back

Learn the phrases--really internalize the relationship between notes and rhythm--and then label it with modes and chord tones. Even copping short phrases from your favorite musicians and internalizing the time feel--that's gonna sound SO MUCH BETTER than learning a scale, "all of it's permutations", and Bob's your uncle when it's your turn to solo.

Sorry, but modes and talking harmony till we're blue in the face--that's the type of music education I've rallied against for years on Youtube and elsewhere. That is what led me to a rhythmic-centric proposal that is far from revolutionary. I have to say the "we" again. We need a better mousetrap. We need a better way of learning how to play jazz, especially on the guitar.

[GuyBoden]

It's the note choice that really matters, not the scale choice.

[kris]

It's the note choice that really matters, not the scale choice.

The choice of scale is also the choice of notes.

[kris]

[Christian Miller]

I have this book which writes about Modes, and it starts with Phrygian scale, and then Phyrigian Etude to practice.
No tabs, just the notes on staff.

It sounds not quite a tune or phrase, but some dissonant sound.
It then goes on to Aeolian scale and Aeolian Etudes ... so on and so forth.

How does the Mode practice assist / help / teach for playing the real songs?

Realise I didn’t address the question!

I would say it depends. There are players out there who have a very modal approach.

Obviously there are modal tunes which give you a lot of time to explore a scale. So What is the archetype example, Maiden Voyage and Little Sunflower are other examples that are frequently taught.

For changes based stuff, I don’t know if it’s the best. There is a modal approach for changes but that’s not the classic way to do it. I don’t recommend this as a way into the standards (by which I mean the old tin pan alley/vocal songs like Autumn Leaves etc.)

The classic way to do it is practicing chord tones through the changes and learning/transcribing jazz lines and taking them through II V’s. That will get you into sounding like jazz, if that’s a concern.

There’s other issues and ideas but I’ll leave it there.

But I could listen to Kurt Rosenwinkel playing on an Aeolian vamp all day. This is probably down to the fact that he is a great musician.

If you want to see how great players use this material - I’d advise you to get your headphones on and work out what your favourite players do on a vamp by ear. Start with a few licks. This will do more for you than any book.


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[Christian Miller]

This may help

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[GuyBoden]

It's the note choice that really matters, not the scale choice.

The choice of scale is also the choice of notes.

Yes, that's the problem too many people playing scales and not enough playing actual music.

[kris]

Yes, that's the problem too many people playing scales and not enough playing actual music.

Do you mean jazz music?
No one will be a good musician without practicing scales .
I"m not mentioning the technical qualities, but practicing scales has an impact on the so-called "executive apparatus".

[GuyBoden]

Do you mean jazz music?

Not only Jazz. I think there has been an epidemic of Hobby guitar players playing scales thinking they're playing improv solos.

But, is this a new thing?

[kris]

Not only Jazz. I think there has been an epidemic of Hobby guitar players playing scales thinking they're playing improv solos.

But, is this a new thing?

I think it"s better if they play the scales correctly than they hurt what is called music.
Scals are always a starting point for further development.
That is why in classical music schools it is obligatory to play scales.

[GBRow]

Modes must be an important Jazz topic, because it is in every Jazz Theory books. And there are Jazz music books focusing on the Modes and Modal Voicing. But I never had to think or know about it before for playing pop or blues songs.

Still trying to see the point of practicing or knowing Modes, because it doesn't seem to get used in the real playing.

[GBRow]

Wow, there are many new posts on the topic. I didn't read them until posting the previous post. I will read later when quiet here, and get back to them.

[grahambop]

Still trying to see the point of practicing or knowing Modes, because it doesn't seem to get used in the real playing.

Christian addressed this in post no. 33.

[Christian Miller]

Modes must be an important Jazz topic, because it is in every Jazz Theory books.

I don't know about that.

I think modes are easy to teach, and that's why they are in all the books.

[kris]

I don't know about that.

I think modes are easy to teach, and that's why they are in all the books.

I have a lot of books and it"s true that there is a lot of information about modes.

[GBRow]

Realise I didn’t address the question!

I would say it depends. There are players out there who have a very modal approach.

Obviously there are modal tunes which give you a lot of time to explore a scale. So What is the archetype example, Maiden Voyage and Little Sunflower are other examples that are frequently taught.

For changes based stuff, I don’t know if it’s the best. There is a modal approach for changes but that’s not the classic way to do it. I don’t recommend this as a way into the standards (by which I mean the old tin pan alley/vocal songs like Autumn Leaves etc.)

The classic way to do it is practicing chord tones through the changes and learning/transcribing jazz lines and taking them through II V’s. That will get you into sounding like jazz, if that’s a concern.

There’s other issues and ideas but I’ll leave it there.

But I could listen to Kurt Rosenwinkel playing on an Aeolian vamp all day. This is probably down to the fact that he is a great musician.

If you want to see how great players use this material - I’d advise you to get your headphones on and work out what your favourite players do on a vamp by ear. Start with a few licks. This will do more for you than any book.


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Great info and advice. Thank you.

[GBRow]

This may help

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Great video and playing. Subscribed to your excellent channel. Thanks.

[GBRow]

I don't know about that.

I think modes are easy to teach, and that's why they are in all the books.

I have "Barry Galbraith Jazz Guitar Study Series #2 DAILY EXERCISES", and it is all about The Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor MODES.
I was using it for learning fingerboard exercise.

[kris]

I have "Barry Galbraith Jazz Guitar Study Series #2 DAILY EXERCISES", and it is all about The Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor MODES.
I was using it for learning fingerboard exercise.

I also have this book.

[kris]

[Mick-7]

As I mentioned earlier....

It's useful to know how they relate to chords.... lydian mode for the maj7 chord (I^7 or IV^7), mixolydian for the V7 chord, dorian or aeolian (or phrygian if at all) for the min7, and locrian for the m7b5 chord.

Only one note differs between Gambale's melodic minor superlocrian scale and the major locrian scale, i.e., the note C, the 3rd degree of the major scale, is flatted.

For example:
G locrian (scale that starts on the 7th degree of the Ab major scale) = G-Ab-Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-G.
G superlocrian (scale starting on the 7th degree of the Ab melodic minor scale) = G-Ab-Bb-B(Cb)-Db-Eb-F-G

Which is why you can use the Ab major scale as an altered scale over Gm7b5 /C7(alt) and over Dm7b5/G7(alt).

[WILSON 1]

I’m a student of BH. His half-step rules covering D7 require you to see the space and no-space within the scale which is mapped out Dorian @A.