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Wow, I set the playback speed up to 1.40 and
Originally Posted by kris
heard it throughout. My take what he's saying.
- modal is important (lots of musical solutions)
- three finger styles a problem (solved by four)
- position playing problems (solved by moving)
Maybe guitarist's should know with modes that
there might be some mechanical (fingering) as
well as conceptual (application) challenges, all
needing some prepatory thought and decision.
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04-03-2026 01:35 PM
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I don't usually think about modes. I find it hard enough to incorporate one sound into my playing, so it's easy to feel overwhelmed by take x of one thing and then match all of x to y of another thing and then apply each of x*y to z and then in 12 keys plus enharmonic equivalents -- or whatever a modal approach entails.
The alternative to a lot of it is to think about chord tones and tonal center. So, for example, when you hit the E7 in All of Me, you can raise the G (in the C tonal center) to a G#. If it helps you to think 5th mode A harmonic minor, great. I think it's harder that way.
When I see Dm7 in C tonal center, I don't need to think D dorian. All I need to do is to recognize that the chord tones may go well on the strong beats and the rest is C tonal center.
I learned, some time back, that playing a G major scale against C major can sound good. One note is different, the F goes to F#. If it helps you to think lydian mode, great. But just remembering that you can play in the key of the V gets you to the same place.
And, it helps, I think, not to be root bound. So, that G major scale doesn't have to start on G. It's just a collection of notes you can use.
G7alt? Usually, that's played as a G7b9#9b13. (no #11). Maybe thinking about a melodic minor mode makes it easier in this case, but, usually I think the notes of Abm(add9) for the tensions and the tonal center of the resolution.
One of the foundations of this approach is that you know the notes in the chords and scales you use and you can find them on the neck. If you prefer to use a pattern based approach, maybe thinking about modes would be helpful. I don't know. I've never been good at memorizing dots on grids.
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Agree..But it is not a universal solution..Frank knows which mode will work where and when.. Originally Posted by pauln
I find the fascination/mystery with modes is what many new to them may think them to be magical and will work
in places that they do not. Yes the pros make it sound easy and the exotic names do have a "cool" factor.
Frank did alot of homework..way before he did this. vid. If you are new to modes and their use..prepare to do some intense study
not only how to play them..but how to use them.
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See: Fingering: Leavitt v. Larsen Originally Posted by pauln
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I just read though that whole thread. So many different systems have emerged, but I kept thinking, if tasked with developing a system what would be step one? If really starting over I think step one must be with the hand itself - the basis of establishing the hand's domain of possibilities must come from physiology (anatomists, hand surgeons, etc.). Wouldn't that be the starting point which defines and confines the physical boundary conditions of any system? Then, only then would the musical requirements be presented for realization within the informed domain of the hand. The closest alternative to that (absent the medical info) might be to take the natural approach; let the hands figure out the best way all by themselves, but it looks more like musicians think they might outsmart nature by coming up with systems. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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When I was practicing with the pop songs and some blues music, I used to just play the scales in the box shapes, be it pentatonic, blues or major scales I was not sure while I was playing along the songs. I had no idea what notes they were either. But it sounded ok to my ears. My brother-in-law who plays classical guitar told me that it is not good way to play guitar, because it sounds uninteresting and wrong. But I was enjoying the practice playing at the time. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Now I try to learn and practice proper way, hence having bought some books and keep reading them to practice better way.
I am not sure if knowing the modes, and all the notes and intervals in the modes would give the similar way to my earlier practicing and playing method - i.e. being able to play along any songs improvising with the melodies in the mode scales.
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Originally Posted by GBRow
I think you have been given alot of good advice from the members here.
My take..Just learn the Major, Natural/Harmonic/Melodic minor scales in all keys and positions
Within those scales alone you will be able to play thousand of tunes.
Before you tackle modes..learn the chords in those scales--and their inversions--Triads and four note chords (7's)--in all keys
In doing the above you are absorbing basic harmonic movement within each key. You are also learning the fretboard and note placement of each scale and chord.
This will take alot of work, time and dedication..THEN the subject of modes will make far more sense and be far less complicated.
hope this helps
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Great advice and info. Thank you. Originally Posted by wolflen
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In my early days I also started with the blues/pentatonic scales and had the same problem: You take a scale and then just "noodle" on it. I also did the same when I started studying jazz guitar. Originally Posted by GBRow
It didn't sound "wrong", since you use the correct notes, but it will sound directionless and boring.
I'm still an intermediate jazz player, but my advice would be to focus most of your time on learning vocabulary and applying it to songs. It will make you sound much more intentional than just noodling on scales.
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Modes are not additional to scales, but a system that includes the major and minor scales. Learning modes can be immensely satisfying, and opens the potential of improvising with knowledge of the kinds of jazz that have developed since the 1950s. Originally Posted by GBRow
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Thank you for informative and helpful comment. Great advice too. Originally Posted by dharma2020
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Yes, I have now a few Modal Jazz Harmony books, and it seems a great topic to learn and practice. If nothing, it would teach me how to navigate fretboard knowing more notes. But I am finding the books which actually make great use of Modal Harmony in Jazz guitar playing in the real Jazz tunes. Originally Posted by Litterick
It would be some while later, I could understand it more, and make use of them in the real playing. I am just a total beginner, who started learning Jazz guitar, and practice from this January.
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Then I wouldn’t worry about modes Originally Posted by GBRow
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Originally Posted by GBRow
Do not make modes your main focus if you are a beginner. The beginning is understanding 'Tonal harmony,' how chords function within a key, and the related scales. Then in jazz, chromaticism is used on top of that for interest. The modes are related to this, but mode study is not the main thing if you are a beginner. Do not make modes your main study - tonal harmony is the basis. Also, you'll make appropriate progress with a teacher or some type of educational system. Just messing around with random materials when you don't have any understanding isn't the best way.Yes, I have now a few Modal Jazz Harmony books, and it seems a great topic to learn and practice. If nothing, it would teach me how to navigate fretboard knowing more notes. But I am finding the books which actually make great use of Modal Harmony in Jazz guitar playing in the real Jazz tunes. It would be some while later, I could understand it more, and make use of them in the real playing. I am just a total beginner, who started learning Jazz guitar, and practice from this January.
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The best book for Mode seems to be the Levine's Jazz Theory book. It is very clearly written in Chapter 2 &3, so was ok to understand. After reading the chapter 2 of Levine book, I now understand the chords are built from the Modes, so it seems a very important topic, and useful knowledge for understanding how chords are built. Will be reading chapter 3 tomorrow - it seems talking about chord / scale theory and modes / chord progressions. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
I wasn't making modes for my main study at all. Just happened buying a couple Modal Voicing books, and was trying to see how Modes could be used for playing the real music. I felt Modes voicing and scale practicing interesting, because some of them gives exotic sounds.
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I am just a hobby learner playing guitar for myself in spare time, so will not be having any teachers. Trying to learn the whole thing just by listening to the music, watching some youtube jazz guitar videos, the books and self study. This forum is also very helpful for asking questions, and getting answers from the experienced players for their ideas and opinions. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
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For that, The Jazz Harmony Book by David Berkman is excellent. Chapter 1-3 explains about the topic in detail. After reading the chapters, I now understand how the simple triads can be harmonised for the rich and interesting tones by adding 7th, 9th, 11th and 13th. A great text book. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
OK, many folks said theory alone will not make you good guitarist as the tone is in the fingers, but knowing why and how seems to make the whole subject much more interesting.
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You're right. Tonal harmony, the harmonized major scale, comes from the modes, or the modes are extended chords built in 2nds. That's an essential foundation. You also want to be able to use spicy sounds in the playing, it can't just be plain. So you're right. But you don't want to only use diatonic modes for each chord, or do the exotic modal tunes thing as a foundation. Originally Posted by GBRow
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Great thread, many approaches with so much interesting and useful information so far!
Aside from playing modal standards, like Impressions, I have used modes in solo playing. When putting together a solo guitar arrangement for a live performance, I usually begin with some kind of intro and then play the theme once or twice. After that, I prefer to use a looper to create a short vamp over which to do an ad-lib section. But rather than looping the full changes, I like to use the old fusion thing of vamping a couple of chords that have one or maybe two differing notes, and create a sort of "mode" to use over that. For me, it gives the ad-lib section a kind of a cohesion; it's related to the melody and changes but isn't bound by them. After that, I'll often segue back into the usual theme and changes.
While I understand the formalities of modes, the naming conventions, the theory behind them, etc., I don't usually think of a mode in a formal way. I like to see a mode as a kind of a note cluster, out of which one can create something like chords and play lines. To me it differs from playing changes, to a standard for example, but I like the contrast of playing a standard as chord melody with the full changes and use something modal for an ad-lib.
I'm not an expert on any of this. As an "amateur" musician (in the sense of Merrifield "the pleasures of doing what you love") I have limited skills. And getting on in years, rather than shedding I prefer to make creative use of my limitations to enjoy playing when an opportunity arises or when I feel like it. So the vamps as noted above help to extend the solo sets beyond playing a chord melody. I also go to open jazz jam sessions at a variety of venues at least once a week, and enjoy playing modal standards when they get called. That has led to an occasional invitation to do a solo live set a few times a year, usually as part of a community event. I find it pleasurable to work on putting together various arrangements for the invited solo sets. I try to vary the songs, mostly jazz tunes but also some pop songs (such as the Beatles). I may recycle sections among and between these songs for intros, outros, segues, etc. and sometimes for the quasi modal ad-lib interludes. There's clearly more to say about modes, but this is getting a bit verbose so I'll end here.
I look forward to learning of your modal adventures and wish you the best in your playing!
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If anyone is serious about studying Modes in relation to actual "Modal Jazz".
This is the best book: Modal Jazz by Ron Miller
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Originally Posted by GBRow
Interesting that you posted the Grateful Dead’s Jack Straw. I accidentally stumbled into modes trying to play Grateful Dead music. I realized that when the Dead were jamming endlessly over a a static chord say A7 that a D major scale would get me close to what Garcia was doing. Only later did I learn that was the mixolydian mode* I also stumbled upon the Dorian mode in the same manner.
However, the four chord jam in Jack Straw can’t be negotiated effectively by playing one mode. Need to address the chord tones.
* A prime example of using your ear first and then let the music theory explain it later
Is that you playing in the example above? If so, may I humbly suggest that you get a looper. Then you can lay down the four chords to the Jack Straw jam and then endlessly noodle over it without all the clashing from the recorded track. Then again the clashing could be a hint. For Jack Straw an A major scale will get you close but paying attention to chord tones will always work.
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Seems like you got your answer though — which is that for the most part they aren’t used for playing jazz. Originally Posted by GBRow
Modern folks like us might use modal concepts for addressing sort of standalone chords in otherwise tonal tunes — eg the Bbm7 to Eb7 in Out of Nowhere — but even then chord scale theory doesn’t really get you there. For example, knowing what an Eb Lydian dominant is would help you play that spot, but wouldn’t help you know why that sounds good since Eb Lydian dominant doesn’t actually fit that pair of chords.
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Most people have forgotten what "Modal Jazz" was.
Rock players started using Modes, and that is where the confusion started from, when applying these Rock Modes to Jazz.
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I haven't read through this whole thread, but I basically agree with this post. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Why do you find the book the best for Modal Jazz? How is the book different from other zillions of jazz books? Originally Posted by GuyBoden
If anyone is serious about studying Modes in relation to actual "Modal Jazz".
This is the best book: Modal Jazz by Ron Miller
I am more into Modal Jazz theory because my interest is not actually jazz itself as such, but trying to learn how to play plain songs such as pops, blues or folk using jazz harmonization to make them sound different.
With jazz harmonization and added tensions, even Silent Night song sounded different and interesting in David Berkman's book.
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