Approaches to Improvisation

[Mick-7]

ok so you mean playing across all the ‘joins’ between changes, but allowing a pause when in the middle of (say) 2 bars of Cmajor?

I just find it more challenging and useful to try and keep going without exceptions.

Yes, sir. Hey, don't let me stop you from tormenting yourself!

[grahambop]

Yes, sir. Hey, don't let me stop you from tormenting yourself!

haha well it’s not that tormenting, I find it kind of fun actually, feels a bit like surfboarding and trying not to fall off!

[Tal_175]

I just meant that it doesn't have to be "all notes all of the time," you don't have to play something on every beat. For example, you could "take a breath" in a measure that has only one chord in it. You'd be pausing for the sake of the phrasing, not because you're stumped or lost.

The exercise in its pure form is connecting chord-scales using continuous 8th notes. Connections are voice-led (half or full steps) and lines go step-wise. It's by no means an easy exercise. But then playing the changes in the jazz style is not easy. This exercise is in a way a simplification of playing the changes by eliminating the rhythm and phrasing aspects and letting you focus on the sounds of the chords and navigating your instrument as Joe Pass also explained in his book I believe.

I think breaking out of strict step-wise, scalar movement by using arpeggios and lines as long as they stay within the chord-in-the-moment is still in the spirit of the exercise. I think the exercises described in Joe Pass, and Howard Roberts books did not require only step-wise motion (though Mark Levine's exercises did). Chord connections still need to be voice-led with minimum movement I think.

[James W]

I thought some of Levine's exercises were intervallic and triad or arpeggio based, and were all about switching to the appropriate scale over each chord? (With the triads etc extracted from the said scales).

Something I've done sometimes is to play continuous eighth notes but swap between a scale for one chord and arpeggio for the next.

[pamosmusic]

The point is to play lines that connect and flow over the chord changes, you don't necessarily have to play a never-ending stream of notes to do that.

But maybe I should have put a period, full stop, after "One can still vary the rhythm of ones lines while playing 8th notes."

Okay so like … not this though?

Take a tune you're learning and play continuous 8th note lines over the chord changes; as a way to explore the tunes harmonic structure and find linear ways to connect the chords. The point is to keep playing, keep responding to what you're hearing, rather than starting and stopping, glossing over chord changes you may find difficult, etc. You would play the chord changes at the fastest tempo at which you can manage to play continuous 8th notes, if it's only 65-70 bpm at first, that's just fine. Or alternatively you could play quarter notes at a faster tempo.

[Tal_175]

I thought some of Levine's exercises were intervallic and triad or arpeggio based, and were all about switching to the appropriate scale over each chord? (With the triads etc extracted from the said scales).

Something I've done sometimes is to play continuous eighth notes but swap between a scale for one chord and arpeggio for the next.

That's right. The first set of exercises are in scale steps only, later he shows doing the exercise with other patterns. The section where the exercise is described starts in P.120.

[Mick-7]

Okay so like … not this though?

Take a tune you're learning and play continuous 8th note lines over the chord changes; as a way to explore the tunes harmonic structure and find linear ways to connect the chords. The point is to keep playing, keep responding to what you're hearing, rather than starting and stopping, glossing over chord changes you may find difficult, etc. You would play the chord changes at the fastest tempo at which you can manage to play continuous 8th notes, if it's only 65-70 bpm at first, that's just fine. Or alternatively you could play quarter notes at a faster tempo.

Tal said that is the pure form of the exercise, as recommended by various authors, so we can stick to it - but I may continue to have impure thoughts about it.

The exercise in its pure form is connecting chord-scales using continuous 8th notes.

[JohnoL]

Some of the comments brought this thread to mind.


20 weeks to a higher level of proficiency: Howard Roberts Super Chops one more time.

[pamosmusic]

Tal said that is the pure form of the exercise, as recommended by various authors, so we can stick to it - but I may continue to have impure thoughts about it.

Okay.

For the record I am pro-slightly-amorphous-improvisation-thread. The OP and your initial recording led me to believe we were talking about the continuous eighth note thing.

But if folks are kind of posting ideas, I’m here for it for sure. A little aimlessness is probably a good thing. Folks will get some new ideas. I hadn't played the continuous eighth note thing for years, before this morning.

[Mick-7]

Some of the comments brought this thread to mind.

20 weeks to a higher level of proficiency: Howard Roberts Super Chops one more time.

I was looking at his Praxis System books (3 volumes) today, the pdf's have been sitting on my external hard drive for a long time but I've never gone through them. There is a lot of great material in them, including improvisation techniques that we could try, I'll review them.

Praxis System Vol. 1 - Amazon.com -- Praxis System Vol. 2 - Amazon.com

[GuyBoden]

If using backing tracks.

It's good to create your own backing track, recording your own comping.

This method has been recommended by many good Jazz guitar tutors.

Comping is what Jazz guitarists do most.

[ragman1]

I don't know, you boys really have no idea.

The object of this thread, and the last one, is to discuss/explore ways to approach improvisation, right? But you're not approaching it, you're avoiding it.

If you want to practice or improve your improvisation you have to improvise. Like running or cooking or driving, you have to DO IT.

But you're not. You've escaped off into something completely different. On the last one it was 'etudes' and we know what happened there. Here now it's 'continuous 8ths'. And you're still not actually doing that either!

Who have you ever heard play continuous 8ths? Partly continuous, maybe, but not continuous. There's no such thing. Improvisation has to be broken up just the same as speech has to be.

Youdon'tspeaklikethisbecauseyouthinkit'sreallycool tobeabletorattleoffwhatyouwanttosayinthethemostcon tinouswaypossivble so what makes you think you have to do it musically?

Do you get kids to talk continuously to improve their powers of expression? Then why music?

Go and look at all the YT transcriptions of 'Have You Met Miss Jones'. I'm talking pros, famous names, not the usual amateurs. Not a single one is even near using continuous 8ths. Or continuous anything, come to that.

So why are you bothering with it here? Because you think it's some kind of magic pill that'll make you able to improvise.

It won't, it's a direct avoidance of actually getting a tune, however simple, and playing over it. If you want to get good at running, run. Or driving, drive. Or speaking French, speak French, however badly.

You're all talk. Do something concrete. I tell you, if there was a fire you'd all be sitting round arguing about the best way to put it out... while it burned.

[pamosmusic]

I don't know, you boys really have no idea.

The object of this thread, and the last one, is to discuss/explore ways to approach improvisation, right? But you're not approaching it, you're avoiding it.

If you want to practice or improve your improvisation you have to improvise. Like running or cooking or driving, you have to DO IT.

But you're not. You've escaped off into something completely different. On the last one it was 'etudes' and we know what happened there. Here now it's 'continuous 8ths'. And you're still not actually doing that either!

Who have you ever heard play continuous 8ths? Partly continuous, maybe, but not continuous. There's no such thing. Improvisation has to be broken up just the same as speech has to be.

Youdon'tspeaklikethisbecauseyouthinkit'sreallycool tobeabletorattleoffwhatyouwanttosayinthethemostcon tinouswaypossivble so what makes you think you have to do it musically?

Do you get kids to talk continuously to improve their powers of expression? Then why music?

Go and look at all the YT transcriptions of 'Have You Met Miss Jones'. I'm talking pros, famous names, not the usual amateurs. Not a single one is even near using continuous 8ths. Or continuous anything, come to that.

So why are you bothering with it here? Because you think it's some kind of magic pill that'll make you able to improvise.

It won't, it's a direct avoidance of actually getting a tune, however simple, and playing over it. If you want to get good at running, run. Or driving, drive. Or speaking French, speak French, however badly.

You're all talk. Do something concrete. I tell you, if there was a fire you'd all be sitting round arguing about the best way to put it out... while it burned.

Hi Ragman … I considered just telling you to shove off.

But instead … if you want to get good at soccer**, do you just go play soccer? You certainly could.

But I doubt you’d be as good as someone who spent time working on the skills. And you wouldn’t mock someone who did.

That would be ridiculous. Anyone who works on a complex skill spends time working on component skills.

The best soccer coach I ever had never really did drills. We’d play the whole practice, but it would start with everyone divided into one on one keepaway in 10x10 squares. Then the squares would get a little bigger for two on two. Then they’d get a little bigger for three on three and we’d score points by knocking over a cone in the middle of the square. Then bigger for five on five with a small goal where the ball had to cross on the ground to score. And so on until we were playing full field scrimmages at the end.

So yeah, you should play and improvise, but one of the best ways to work on skills in real time is by playing and improvising with various restrictions of varying difficulty to target those skills.

So you could mock people for avoiding playing (though I’ll note that I haven’t seen you post anything yet) or you could look at your SoundCloud, notice that you’ve been playing the same stuff at the same tempo for ten years, and ask yourself if maybe you might have something to gain from an open mind.

(**yes yes yes football etc)

[grahambop]

Ragman did actually post something on page 1.

I tend not to follow his jazz advice though, surprising though that may seem.

[pamosmusic]

Ragman did actually post something on page 1.

I tend not to follow his jazz advice though, surprising though that may seem.

Oh gosh I can’t believe I missed it

[grahambop]

Heed ragman's warning - do not practise continuous 8th notes, in case you end up playing like this poor fellow.

[CliffR]

Here's a lick I composed a few days ago over the first ii-V-I in ATTYA. I just set the backing track on a loop and started playing with the timing a little. The idea was to play something over the ii and V that repeated with only a small melodic variation between the two chords so it would fit both, and then a simple resolution to the third of the I. Ideally I'd have taken the time to try it over different chords in the song and in different positions on the guitar.

[James W]

I don't know, you boys really have no idea.

The object of this thread, and the last one, is to discuss/explore ways to approach improvisation, right? But you're not approaching it, you're avoiding it.

If you want to practice or improve your improvisation you have to improvise. Like running or cooking or driving, you have to DO IT.

But you're not. You've escaped off into something completely different. On the last one it was 'etudes' and we know what happened there. Here now it's 'continuous 8ths'. And you're still not actually doing that either!

Who have you ever heard play continuous 8ths? Partly continuous, maybe, but not continuous. There's no such thing. Improvisation has to be broken up just the same as speech has to be.

Youdon'tspeaklikethisbecauseyouthinkit'sreallycool tobeabletorattleoffwhatyouwanttosayinthethemostcon tinouswaypossivble so what makes you think you have to do it musically?

Do you get kids to talk continuously to improve their powers of expression? Then why music?

Go and look at all the YT transcriptions of 'Have You Met Miss Jones'. I'm talking pros, famous names, not the usual amateurs. Not a single one is even near using continuous 8ths. Or continuous anything, come to that.

So why are you bothering with it here? Because you think it's some kind of magic pill that'll make you able to improvise.

It won't, it's a direct avoidance of actually getting a tune, however simple, and playing over it. If you want to get good at running, run. Or driving, drive. Or speaking French, speak French, however badly.

You're all talk. Do something concrete. I tell you, if there was a fire you'd all be sitting round arguing about the best way to put it out... while it burned.

Got to be some of the least intelligent comments I've ever seen. As though you just speak French without any preparation. There is no magic pill, but lots of preparation involved in learning to do things like speaking a foreign language or jazz improvisation. Adam Rogers among others advocates the continuous eighth note idea - it's an exercise, not what you'd do when actually playing, in the same way that you wouldn't regurgitate French verb conjugations or whatever when speaking French. Do you grasp this concept of preparation? It is important for people who are interested in learning to play jazz. As for comparing continuous eighth note exercises to speaking continuously, that comment just invites ridicule, it's so obtuse. No, the idea is that the continuous eighth note exercise improves your knowledge of the fretboard, helps you internalise the tune and improves your sense of where you are in the form.

[pamosmusic]

Do you get kids to talk continuously to improve their powers of expression? Then why music?

Though I have to admit I like this one.

Spoken like a dude who’s never met a toddler.

[Christian Miller]

Hi Ragman … I considered just telling you to shove off.

But instead … if you want to get good at soccer**, do you just go play soccer? You certainly could.

But I doubt you’d be as good as someone who spent time working on the skills. And you wouldn’t mock someone who did.

That would be ridiculous. Anyone who works on a complex skill spends time working on component skills.

The best soccer coach I ever had never really did drills. We’d play the whole practice, but it would start with everyone divided into one on one keepaway in 10x10 squares. Then the squares would get a little bigger for two on two. Then they’d get a little bigger for three on three and we’d score points by knocking over a cone in the middle of the square. Then bigger for five on five with a small goal where the ball had to cross on the ground to score. And so on until we were playing full field scrimmages at the end.

So yeah, you should play and improvise, but one of the best ways to work on skills in real time is by playing and improvising with various restrictions of varying difficulty to target those skills.

So you could mock people for avoiding playing (though I’ll note that I haven’t seen you post anything yet) or you could look at your SoundCloud, notice that you’ve been playing the same stuff at the same tempo for ten years, and ask yourself if maybe you might have something to gain from an open mind.

(**yes yes yes football etc)

I’m not sure I can take any of this very seriously coming from an American


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[pamosmusic]

I’m not sure I can take any of this very seriously coming from an American


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bollocks

[pamosmusic]

Though I will admit I did lose a couple friends when I quit the school team my senior year to be in jazz band.

Oops.

[Mick-7]

when I’m learning a new tune I absolutely go sans backing track. What I’ll usually do is spend some time playing it in single octaves or in string sets and using only the most basic triads and improvise using that stuff. So I’m working on finding the most obvious and illustrative melodies through a tune in ways that by definition will never depart from the super basic harmony.

o.k., but you don't need to hear the chord progression to do that well?

Do you get kids to talk continuously to improve their powers of expression?

Absolutely not, children should be seen and not heard!

Youdon'tspeaklikethisbecauseyouthinkit'sreallycool tobeabletorattleoffwhatyouwanttosayinthethemostcon tinouswaypossivble so what makes you think you have to do it musically?

The continuous 8th note exercise is supercalifragilisticexpialidocious. If we do it long enough, we'll always sound precocious, even though the sound of it is (may be) something quite atrocious.

I have noticed that this exercise can have different applications. At slow tempos, it can be useful for developing the ability to come up with good sounding lines, in real time, that flow over the chord changes. (I don't know about anyone else, but I have trouble coming up with original lines at fast tempos.) And at faster tempos, it's good for learning to skillfully outline the changes.

[grahambop]

I've been doing the continuous 8th thing quite a lot this afternoon (it's raining here!), on ATTYA, Green Dolphin Street, and Airegin. Really showing up some weak spots but also generating some new ideas. Definitely need to keep doing this.

[Mick-7]

I've been doing the continuous 8th thing quite a lot this afternoon (it's raining here!), on ATTYA, Green Dolphin Street, and Airegin. Really showing up some weak spots but also generating some new ideas. Definitely need to keep doing this.

At what tempo are you playing them?