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I started a thread about starting an improvisation study group but it devolved into a debate on how we should approach it. So I'm trying again with this thread, which can become a study group if there's enough interest in it.
In the other thread { Here: Improv Study Group? }
I said: "Is there interest in starting a thread in which we study and compare ways of creating lines that flow over the chord changes? That is, approaches or techniques to connect chord tones and scales to create good sounding lines and melodies. In other threads, people have mentioned techniques like practicing playing 8th note lines over the chord changes, using Barry Harris strategies, etc. We could record or write down examples that illustrate the improvisation approaches we use."
Thought I'd start the thread with an improv approach I learned from Joe Pass at a guitar workshop, which is:
Take a tune you're learning and play continuous 8th note lines over the chord changes; as a way to explore the tunes harmonic structure and find linear ways to connect the chords. The point is to keep playing, keep responding to what you're hearing, rather than starting and stopping, glossing over chord changes you may find difficult, etc. You would play the chord changes at the fastest tempo at which you can manage to play continuous 8th notes, if it's only 65-70 bpm at first, that's just fine. Or alternatively you could play quarter notes at a faster tempo.
I have recorded an example of myself using this method on "Have You Met Miss Jones" with a backing track at 120 bpm. This is faster than I would normally play an unfamiliar tune but the tune is not completely new to me (I hadn't played it in a long time though). At this stage (of my example) I'm mostly exploring the chord changes, not striving to be musically coherent, that will come as I continue the practice.
Meeting Miss Jones 01 (8th notes improv) - Box.com
Last edited by Mick-7; 06-11-2025 at 08:11 PM.
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06-04-2025 12:29 AM
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Don't choose difficult, complex tunes if you're just getting into improvisation. It's counterproductive and doomed to disaster.
Slow it down so you're comfortable.
Let's hear the backing clearly so we can judge the effect of the lines against the harmonies.
Personally, I abhor 'methods' for improvisation (beyond the necessary finding of notes essential to the chords). My experience of exercises is that it makes soloing sound mechanical, like exercises. I prefer to play something I feel, it's more human.
Rather than simply launch into a stream of 8th notes I prefer to phrase the notes in accordance with the tune, like using phrases and sentences in language. That way the listener has an ongoing reminder of the head he's just heard and there's a connection to the tune even though the head isn't being played.
Find the notes/scales that go with the chords. Some will be obvious, others not so, but they should all be tested before posting any recordings. If something goes clang it needs to be sorted out before publication.
Personally, I'd never want to post something I knew sounded like dreadful, amateur fumbling and then have to grovel out my apologies and excuses. Work on it till you're happy with what you've got. Then you'll be happy to post it and the listener won't be afraid to say what they think. In short, if you find yourself making pathetic excuses, do it again.
Avoid comparing yourself with others, do your best with what you've got. Who can ask for more?
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The continuous 8th note method is an improvisation exercise, you have to know the chords and relevant scales to be able to to do it at all. Playing variations on the melody is another way to go, there are a few possible approaches. We discussed the 8th note exercise and other approaches in this thread: Pitfalls of Patterns
This is the backing track I used [120bpm]:
Last edited by Mick-7; 06-04-2025 at 04:17 AM.
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The next thing I'd do is find a version that outlined the tune as clearly as possible and compare it with the lead sheet. Sinatra nearly always sings it per the book. And he does with this tune.
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Then I'd make a backing track for myself. Comfortable tempo, no funny business. Just one chorus.
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I wasn't suggesting that we cover Have You Met Miss Jones, people can work on whatever tune they'd like.
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Then I'd get the head down. If it's easy I'll sight-read it and then polish it. No frills, just do the tune.
See, we're almost there :-)
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So now I'd go round the chords. Nothing fancy, just the obvious. No altered sounds. This is actually the second go, I didn't like the first one.
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Second chorus. Move it up the neck a bit and add some altered sounds before the respective I chords. Also at the end.
None of this is final by a long chalk. Now I work on it and see what comes out. The brain needs time to assimilate the whole tune. I actually haven't done it in years, this is all impromptu and probably sounds like it. But it's a start.
That's all. That's the approach I use, per the thread title. Not your cup of tea, I dare say, but so be it :-)
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Good idea.
I usually use variations on a single 'Lick' on each chord type in the song. After about week of practice, I might remember the lick and the song structure.
My lick this week is for "Autumn Leaves", here are the first 4 bars:
It's a good lick.
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If you all do different tunes it's going to be a mess.
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The song needs to be easy, so everyone can play and contribute.
Originally Posted by ragman1
I posted a method showing variations on a single 'lick' for each chord type M7, m7, Dom7 that connect and can be used for any song.
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Then don't start with Miss Jones which goes into all sorts of odd keys. Start with Autumn bloody Leaves or something :-) Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Exactly. That's why I don't like 'exercises', precisely because they're generic and not geared to the tune in question. If they're not designed for that tune then they'll sound random and popped in to simulate an actual musical line that fits the chord and the spirit of the tune.can be used for any song.
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To my ears, I try for a combination of known 'Jazz Language' and the 'Spirit of the Song'. Originally Posted by ragman1
Personally, I think Ragman plays in the 'Spirit of the Song' with a very good ear, but with very little 'Jazz Language'.
But, it's played with Ragman's good olde worlde 'Acoustic English Folk Jazz' personal style.
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Guy, the trouble with bebop lines is I don't hear them. If I heard them I'd play them but for some reason I don't. All I can do is move with the chords and hopefully produce something vaguely musical.
That's the story, sad but true.
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By the way, fwiw, I've never done Brit or English folk music. Turns me off. As soon as I hear that finger-in-the-ear sound I run the other way. There may have been the odd exception but I can't even remember them
I've always and only done American. I respond to it, it's part of me. For some reason I relate to it. I travelled a lot when young so I think I may have developed a more global outlook or something, I don't know. Probably deep down I'm just a dreadful hippy :-)
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Yes, start with an easy Song, that everyone might be able to play. Originally Posted by ragman1
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But the rules are the same for easy songs as they are for complex ones, there's no difference. It's still just lines over chords. If you start with easy stuff and get that you can do the hard ones.
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Good lord yall. Mick set some parameters. Post something if you want. If you don’t, don’t.
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How about improvised, continuous 8th notes through the changes. By improvised I mean not playing lines worked out before hand. It's still an exercise and therefore a limited from of improvisation as the lines are continuous and made up of notes that come from the chord in the moment.
Some modifications in the spirit of the exercise to adjust the difficulty depending on the familiarity with the tune (or the instrument) could be:
- Tempo can be as slow as it needs to be.
- Continuous quarter notes, triplets, or 16th are possible. But only one these per exercise.
- The harmony can be simplified and multiple changes can be approximated with a single chord when appropriate.
- The exercise can span over the entire range of the instrument or it can be limited to a 5th interval (8 frets) or anything in between.
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I've got a feeling there aren't many people who could improvise all 8ths over a progression just like that. Exercises, yes, because they're written out but that's not improvisation. So they kid themselves that if they copy pre-written stuff enough they'll wake up one morning and *poof* be able to zoom round anything impromtu.
Ain't gonna happen, bro.
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You can’t get away from the sandals and morris dancing, Rag. It comes for us all. Originally Posted by ragman1
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I'm sure... like death Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I can do this to some extent (continuous 8th note improv), but every now and then I get ‘painted into a corner’ (or go wrong) and have to stop for a moment and figure out how to get out of it. After all, my usual playing style is mostly 8th notes with some spaces and shorter phrases between, so I should be able to do it. Originally Posted by ragman1
Very valuable exercise actually, I should do it more often.
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Absolutely, but you're already very good. You've got the talent and the T-shirt after all this time. If a person has the basic interest and aptitude then the skill can be improved on with work. I mean, that's what all the pros do, except they probably find it easier than most. Originally Posted by grahambop
But if, like me, it's not given then you have to find another way.
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