Pitfalls of Patterns

[d115]

I can noodle up and down the neck all day in a key by using Jimmy Brunos positions. Albiet a bit ho hum sounding. The problem i have is not knowing what im playing at any given time. If i lose my place, things collapse.like a house of cards. Im currently doing Tim Lerch's Blues Foundation on truefire. He's basically using the blues scale but im finding myself falling into the trap of learning patterns but not associating things with actual notes or arpeggios. When targeting a note for a change in the chord (the third of the I to the 7th of the IV.. for ex, in A, the..c# to c, its difficult incorporating that AND staying within the basic blues scale.
How do you transition from pattern based to actually know what youre playing? Ive heard thats its a combination but i dont find it that way

I should have started with a non stringed instrument years ago, lol.

Any sugestions for an older learner who has trouble making associations?

[rpjazzguitar]

I can noodle up and down the neck all day in a key by using Jimmy Brunos positions. Albiet a bit ho hu

Any sugestions for an older learner who has trouble making associations?

There's an entirely different approach that might be worth trying.

Pick a song and strum the chords. Scat sing along with the chords. When you sing something that sounds good to you figure out how to play it on the guitar.

This requires that you be able to scat sing. I guess most people can, although I've never done the research. If somebody can't, I don't have a recommendation for developing the skill.

First, test yourself.

Pick a random string, fret and finger. Starting there, play Happy Birthday, hopefully without making a mistake.
Playing Happy Birthday requires that you be able to hear something in your mind and play it. If you can't do it, spend some time copying things. Even background music on the TV. Anything.

If you're getting lost in a song, put on a backing track, like IRealPro, slow it down if necessary and play along while watching the chord-of-the-moment light up on screen. Eventually, play the song from memory.

Good luck.

[Tal_175]

I can noodle up and down the neck all day in a key by using Jimmy Brunos positions. Albiet a bit ho hum sounding. The problem i have is not knowing what im playing at any given time. If i lose my place, things collapse.like a house of cards. Im currently doing Tim Lerch's Blues Foundation on truefire. He's basically using the blues scale but im finding myself falling into the trap of learning patterns but not associating things with actual notes or arpeggios. When targeting a note for a change in the chord (the third of the I to the 7th of the IV.. for ex, in A, the..c# to c, its difficult incorporating that AND staying within the basic blues scale.
How do you transition from pattern based to actually know what youre playing? Ive heard thats its a combination but i dont find it that way

I should have started with a non stringed instrument years ago, lol.

Any sugestions for an older learner who has trouble making associations?

Not sure what you mean by patterns here but yes you can't outline the changes of a tune by playing one scale up and down the fretboard. Most chords will have specific notes that would be outside of that one scale (or the key of the tune). In order to have harmonic specificity in your solos you would either use multiple scales that are rooted in the chords of the tune or use arpeggio/chord tones and embellishments type of approach. These would also allow you to know how the notes you play relate to the chord in the moment. Is that your question, how to outline changes in jazz solos?

[pamosmusic]

Yeah +1 to what Tal said.

And blues that will be especially true. The blues scale sounds great over the entire blues, but also doesn't contain the actual notes of any of the three main chords in the form.

So I guess the advice is that -- you don't play the notes of the chords while staying inside the scale pattern.

As for the transition to "actually knowing what you're playing" ... you can go and actually just drill the notes on the neck. Pick a note -- say, C -- and just find the C on each string, one string at a time, for a couple days. Then do the same thing with G.

But what you'll probably find is that you still don't really feel like you "know" what you're doing because a big part of the whole thing is context. Not just knowing that you're on a C, but that it's fifth of your F7 chord and knowing what that looks like in context. So it's not some transition from looking at patterns to knowing everything you're playing -- for guitar players, it's a literal combination.

I would say, learn triads in inversions. Start with major triads (for the blues) and start on the top three strings. Then the next three. That's what made me feel like I actually knew where I was and what I was doing.

[ragman1]

When targeting a note for a change in the chord (the third of the I to the 7th of the IV.. for ex, in A, the..c# to c

You have to change the pattern. You can't use one pattern for the whole thing.

[Mick-7]

You have to map out the tonal centers to determine what scales will be appropriate, and as ragman just said, alter your scale patterns to fit the tonal centers.

[39cord]

I think we are in a similar position in how we approach the instrument and age.


I am a pattern player also. I come from the CAGED forms which were figured out in the first few hours of picking up the instrument many decades ago. Don’t ask me which form is C, A, G… as I don’t know them by name. The important thing is there are 5 patterns before they repeat.


This is my foundation and it is like reinforced concrete. It is a solid base and a good foundation to build on. When going to the novice jam sessions a long time ago all tunes were mowed down with the minor pentatonic of the key the song was written in. It works. Not at all sophisticated but it works.


Breaking out of this type of simplistic approach is your goal and has been mine for some time.


Practice for me for maybe 3 years now is to use a 12 bar blues chord sequence. Something repetitive and not too hard on my not so strong brain but also useful in that it is foundational to jazz music and does not build bad muscle memory. Starting with all dominant 7^th chords the objective was to play only what I call, right or wrong, diatonic notes. Only the notes in the arpeggio. There are 5 patterns for each chord before they repeat. Playing each chord in the progression without moving up or down the fretboard is the starting point.


Not to be pessimistic but after 3 years I am only now becoming fluent moving through all 5 patterns up and down the neck at practice speeds of 140 to 160 bpm. It is taxing mentally for me but I find it necessary to call out the chord letters in my head and to almost constantly keep track of them. Otherwise I drive off the road. It is very slow for some of us to build the linkage pathways needed between the cortex (think math problems or strategy) and hypo campus (memory). Those are the two areas that must be exercised and built out. The motor skill parietal section and hopefully your ear through ear training we both have down with our patterns and earlier practice so just practicing them more will not move us forward.


Using band in a box I can play with Ron Carter and a good swing drummer any time I want and they never complain. By using a different key and tempo every day you are kept from becoming a strictly pattern player and recording each take and then playing it back lets you know how bad you sound. Very quickly you don’t sound so bad any more. As you continue to practice you figure out those chord symbols shown above the staff are only guides. At certain measures different rules apply as there are diatonic notes that just plain sound bad. The turnaround being an example and measure 9 where things are more fluid in order to break up the predictability.

[d115]

Thank you everyone for the suggestions!

I can see some key centers. I know theory to some extent but always have had trouble applying it. . For ex. A tonal center In C, i will play patterns. C ionion to d dorian to e phrygian, etc. I wander aimlessly. When the center changes, i sort of hit a wall until i find my next pattern.....which i mostly start on the dorian scale for some odd reason.
I find it overwhelming to break things down further. Like targeting specific notes, arpeggios and incorporating bits of the melody in a solo, etc.

I just cant seem to make mental connections and piece things together. Ive always hit a wall when trying to apply what i know to the fretboard.
I am going to take a relatively easy piece, perhaps Summertime or So What and work it slowly. My prediction is ill come up with a solo in a litle bit. But it will most likely be a result of knowing where to put my fingers without making the association of what im actually playing.
I really do appreciate the suggestions you were all kind enough to share. It really is frustrating.though to have been playing for so many years and cannot grasp things properly.

[pamosmusic]

Thank you everyone for the suggestions!

I can see some key centers. I know theory to some extent but always have had trouble applying it. . For ex. A tonal center In C, i will play patterns. C ionion to d dorian to e phrygian, etc. I wander aimlessly. When the center changes, i sort of hit a wall until i find my next pattern.....which i mostly start on the dorian scale for some odd reason.
I find it overwhelming to break things down further. Like targeting specific notes, arpeggios and incorporating bits of the melody in a solo, etc.

I just cant seem to make mental connections and piece things together. Ive always hit a wall when trying to apply what i know to the fretboard.
I am going to take a relatively easy piece, perhaps Summertime or So What and work it slowly. My prediction is ill come up with a solo in a litle bit. But it will most likely be a result of knowing where to put my fingers without making the association of what im actually playing.
I really do appreciate the suggestions you were all kind enough to share. It really is frustrating.though to have been playing for so many years and cannot grasp things properly.

Simplifying things.

if you’re calling all those scale patterns by mode names then you’re making things more complicated than they should be.

No one is going to remember all that Greek on the fly

and if you’re playing a lot of standards you don’t need them.

[Strat-itis]

My suggestion is even if you're using ideas within the blues scale, still work out how it's going to function aurally for you. Don't think oh it's blues scale and isn't outlining chord tones so I'm in noodle mode. Work out lyrical, coherent ideas within the blues scale that still function well over the chord you're on, and then transition to more bop, outlining the changes stuff. In jazz it usually isn't just running the blues scale, it's a mix.

[Tal_175]

Thank you everyone for the suggestions!

I can see some key centers. I know theory to some extent but always have had trouble applying it. . For ex. A tonal center In C, i will play patterns. C ionion to d dorian to e phrygian, etc. I wander aimlessly. When the center changes, i sort of hit a wall until i find my next pattern.....which i mostly start on the dorian scale for some odd reason.
I find it overwhelming to break things down further. Like targeting specific notes, arpeggios and incorporating bits of the melody in a solo, etc.

I just cant seem to make mental connections and piece things together. Ive always hit a wall when trying to apply what i know to the fretboard.
I am going to take a relatively easy piece, perhaps Summertime or So What and work it slowly. My prediction is ill come up with a solo in a litle bit. But it will most likely be a result of knowing where to put my fingers without making the association of what im actually playing.
I really do appreciate the suggestions you were all kind enough to share. It really is frustrating.though to have been playing for so many years and cannot grasp things properly.

OK this is more clear. So you memorized the major scale as dot patterns on the fretboard. I suspect you named these patterns with the Greek names depending on the starting note. When you're playing a tune, you find out the placement of the pattern depending on the key and start wondering around the dots. You don't know what note you're playing, what exact chord you're playing over, and how the note you're playing relates to the chord. This type of approach is very common among blues pentatonic players who try to transition to jazz. They basically generalize the pentatonic box approach of intermediate blues to jazz.

I have one good news and one bad news for you. The bad news is you'll have to scratch all that and start from the beginning. The good news is the approaches that are more natural to navigating jazz changes are easier than what you are trying to achieve as Peter said above.

One such approach is, instead of starting from key centers focus on arpeggios and chord tones. Keep your relationship to key centers more aural but make sure you can make simple lines using the arpeggio patterns over each chord and connect them. Your ears will tell you what "in-between" notes sound correct. That comes from the key center. Please note I am suggesting exactly the opposite of what you've been doing. But that would get you out of wondering around one scale over a tune and develop your awareness of harmonic nuances and song forms.

[GuyBoden]

What helps me is knowing all the intervals from a root, it's a pattern too.

Start with the easiest, see pic below:

(Also, I know all the note names on the fretboard too, in the 6 most common keys.)

[pamosmusic]

My suggestion is even if you're using ideas within the blues scale, still work out how it's going to function aurally for you. Don't think oh it's blues scale and isn't outlining chord tones so I'm in noodle mode. Work out lyrical, coherent ideas within the blues scale that still function well over the chord you're on, and then transition to more bop, outlining the changes stuff. In jazz it usually isn't just running the blues scale, it's a mix.

Yeah this is a solo I use alllllllll the time … it’s Grant Green on a Bb blues and he’s using so much blues scale vocab, so many killer blues cliches, but also hitting the changes at exactly the right time.

24 12 11 green street, second chorus.pdf - Google Drive

[Strat-itis]

he’s using so much blues scale vocab, so many killer blues cliches, but also hitting the changes at exactly the right time.

That stuff is so cool and tasty, and imo also is representative of high level playing. I will probably actually use this. And nice job on the transcription and analysis.

[Jimmy blue note]

The general term "pattern" is a concept that can mean lots of things. We all need patterns, movements we teach our fingers to execute so when called upon, there is no hesitation. But in the way we learn the "how" and "can", there is a tendency to not learn the "why" and "when".
If you learn improvisation as an athletic exercise, you'll play like a lick catalogue. If you learn what music is, yes, it's going to take longer but you will also learn the purpose and function of the notes you play.

Patterns are not a way of getting out of not knowing what to play. There are different categories of patterns that each person recognizes; the more mature (hearing) a player is, the more discriminating you become about what kinds of musical phrases (licks) you use, their rhythmic impact (space they create), and how they work with original musical creativity (the bone structure, muscle and tissue) of a phrase. Beyond that, each unique phrase you make works with what came before and what came after to create an arc of intention.

Some patterns can be used to start or open a phrase, others are used to end phrases, and some/many are used to connect musical ideas that convey meaning.
Once you can recognize the function of a musical pattern/lick/sequence/tag/enclosure/grouping... you can employ them tastefully.

How does one go about transitioning from playing from the hand (habitual noodling) to playing from the ear (ideas that flow with purpose)? It begins by recognizing the distinct elements of musical construction (the SHAPING forces of music) and modeling those kinds of ideas into your own designs.
This is done lots of ways. I always prefer ACTIVE listening. Any type of music. Where does it breathe? Where is it going? What takes me there? Where are the devices of genre (patterns) and where are the notes that deliver the punch?
I can listen to a solo by Lester Young and hear how Charlie Christian found his vocabulary. I can listen to Pink Floyd and hear how it's informed by a Bach Oratorio. I can listen to Motown and hear the language of gospel. All of those masterpieces will help you listen ACTIVELY and develop your own purpose for using the notes your hands are just shooting out.

Learn to listen. Listen to learn. Learn to know. Practice to create. Play to experience the joy of order and intention.

That's what helps me anyway.
Good luck.

[GuyBoden]

Practice "Chord Tones" (beginners):

On beats 1 and 3.

Play only the Roots on each chord in a song.

Play only the 3rds on each chord in a song.

Play only the 7ths on each chord in a song.

Play only the 5ths on each chord in a song.

Play only the Roots and 3rds on each chord in a song.

Play only the 7ths and 3rds on each chord in a song.

Play a mixture of all chord tones on each chord in a song.

This beginners practice routine got my ears to hear chord tones. It works

[Jimmy blue note]

Practice "Chord Tones" (beginners):

On beats 1 and 3.

Play only the Roots on each chord in a song.

Play only the 3rds on each chord in a song.

Play only the 7ths on each chord in a song.

Play only the 5ths on each chord in a song.

Play only the Roots and 3rds on each chord in a song.

Play only the 7ths and 3rds on each chord in a song.

Play a mixture of all chord tones on each chord in a song.

This beginners practice routine got my ears to hear chord tones. It works

Oh YEAH! +1
I also have this concept of what I call the CONSTELLATION. It helps me differentiate the importance of regions around the fretboard. Take any note/tonic/root. Learn where all the other "roots" are...above...below...elsewhere on the neck, and know this like the stars in the sky. This gives you a firm grounding of where you can build intervallic maps from AROUND EACH ROOT.
The thing about thinking this way is you can navigate all keys effortlessly in any key---in any position---any location on the neck. Know the root constellation.

[Strat-itis]

I find it overwhelming to break things down further. Like targeting specific notes, arpeggios and incorporating bits of the melody in a solo, etc. I just cant seem to make mental connections and piece things together. I've always hit a wall when trying to apply what i know to the fretboard. I am going to take a relatively easy piece, perhaps Summertime or So What and work it slowly.

That's simply what you have to do otherwise it will never take. You can just piece together ideas for a single chorus and you will make progress.

[pamosmusic]

This beginners practice routine got my ears to hear chord tones. It works

yknow … you can do little things to keep it interesting, but it tends to be the beginner stuff that you keep coming back to anyway.

[AllanAllen]

Hey OP,

You got a lot of good advice here. You learned the 5 positions and that's great, can you play them in 3rds, triads and 7th chords? Spend 5-10 minutes on this focusing on the note names (for 3rds) then the triad and chord names and chord tone roles (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th), sounds easy, but that's like, a month or more of practice routine to build up fluency.

After that you can do arpeggio up, scale tones down, then apply that pattern to tunes, I think it's relaxing to have an extremely structured way to go through changes, always good to pick a simple tune. Just whatever you pick, make sure you go slowly and play deliberately. Metronome on 52 will be overwhelming at first, seriously.

[d115]

OK this is more clear. So you memorized the major scale as dot patterns on the fretboard. I suspect you named these patterns with the Greek names depending on the starting note. When you're playing a tune, you find out the placement of the pattern depending on the key and start wondering around the dots. You don't know what note you're playing, what exact chord you're playing over, and how the note you're playing relates to the chord. This is type of approach is very common among blues pentatonic players who try to transition to jazz. They basically generalize the pentatonic box approach of intermediate blues to jazz.

I have one good news and one bad news for you. The bad news is you'll have to scratch all that and start from the beginning. The good news is the approaches that are more natural to navigating jazz changes are easier than what you are trying to achieve as Peter said above.

One such approach is, instead of starting from key centers focus on arpeggios and chord tones. Keep your relationship to key centers more aural but make sure you can make simple lines using the arpeggio patterns over each chord and connect them. Your ears will tell you what "in-between" notes sound correct. That comes from the key center. Please note I am suggesting exactly the opposite of what you've been doing. But that would get you out of wondering around one scale over a tune and develop your awareness of harmonic nuances and the song forms.

Tal_175, you nailed what is happening! Good to know what the solution is. Taking ALL the suggestions I've been given I'm going to pick an easy standard and really put time into it. Without using position playing as an "easy out."
Further suggestions or insights will also be appreciated.
I can't thank you guys enough.

[pauln]

...AROUND EACH ROOT.

... as in above and below. Just for fun...

learned:
1st degree – The tonic
2nd degree – The supertonic
3rd degree – The mediant
4th degree – The subdominant
5th degree – The dominant
6th degree – The submediant
7th degree – The leading note (or leading tone)

reversed:
7th degree – The leading note (or leading tone)
6th degree – The submediant
5th degree – The dominant
4th degree – The subdominant
3rd degree – The mediant
2nd degree – The supertonic
1st degree – The tonic

expanded, tonic centered, renamed:
5th degree – The superdominant
3rd degree – The supermediant
2nd degree – The supertonic
1st degree – The tonic
7th degree – The subtonic
6th degree – The submediant
4th degree – The subdominant

reimagined:
5th degree – .................................Superdominant
3rd degree – .....................Supermediant
2nd degree – ..........Supertonic
1st degree – .....Tonic
7th degree – ...........Subtonic
6th degree – ......................Submediant
4th degree – ..................................Subdominant

[pamosmusic]

[pauln]

No, it's
Just a rearranged perspective that helps break the habit of starting every scale based phrase from the tonic.
Conceiving a scale as the degree series up from the tonic is good for building chords and arps, but in melodic lines that perspective may limit sight to nice possibilities.

On the piano you would avoid always setting your thumb as the tonic or root.
On the guitar you imagine your fingering "around the tonic" in order to avoid it.

[pamosmusic]

No, it's
Just a rearranged perspective that helps break the habit of starting every scale based phrase from the tonic.

Sweet Jesus I can’t see how it would

On the piano you would avoid always setting your thumb as the tonic or root.
On the guitar you imagine your fingering "around the tonic" in order to avoid it.

though I can imagine how this would