Pitfalls of Patterns

[rpjazzguitar]

No, it's
Just a rearranged perspective that helps break the habit of starting every scale based phrase from the tonic.
Conceiving a scale as the degree series up from the tonic is good for building chords and arps, but in melodic lines that perspective may limit sight to nice possibilities.

On the piano you would avoid always setting your thumb as the tonic or root.
On the guitar you imagine your fingering "around the tonic" in order to avoid it.

It has always seemed to me that practicing scales from the root is a mistake. I think it's better to think of it as a random pool of notes. No order. And if you want to practice a scale, limit yourself to those notes and make melody.

Lots of ways to pick a starting note that's not the root.

As far as the additional nomenclature making anything easier, I don't see it, but I understand that there are a lot of paths up this mountain.

[Christian Miller]

U wot m8?

[Christian Miller]

What helps me is knowing all the intervals from a root, it's a pattern too.

Start with the easiest C Major, see pic below:

(Also, I know all the note names on the fretboard too, in the 6 most common keys.)

At last a diagram that tells us where the good notes are! You should sell that on the internet.

And also the bad notes

[AllanAllen]

There’s been a misunderstanding that we learn scales to directly apply them, as practiced, to music. Which is incorrect, you learn scales as a way to gain facility on the instrument.

You have to learn to sit upright before you even think of running. The better you can navigate the guitar, the more you can say, but you can’t start at whatever Pauln is talking about. You have to start at the start, just like everyone else.

You can’t learn to play the guitar by philosophically discussing theory. You have to play the scales, arpeggios, chord inversions and memorize the note names. Then apply this basic musical knowledge to tunes.

[Christian Miller]

Some people can apply scales directly to music.

I think people usually know themselves whether or not it's working out for them deep down, but they may think the fault lies with themselves, or are not sure what other things to try, or how to get started with them.

After all, there's a LOT of popular jazz books that talk an awful lot about scales.

Ultimately I've come to the conclusion that there's not much that separates scales and chord tones and so on from 'jazz language' but that 'not much' can actually be 'a great deal' if the music isn't felt and heard.

[AllanAllen]

I can’t remember the sidemen, but someone at a Miles Davis recording called out someone else “MF just played the C major scale!”

So, it’s technically possible in outlier instances. Just don’t tell the green guys.

[Christian Miller]

I can’t remember the sidemen, but someone at a Miles Davis recording called out someone else “MF just played the C major scale!”

So, it’s technically possible in outlier instances. Just don’t tell the green guys.

I'm in two minds as to the Noble Lie thing. I think it helped me a great deal to read in a John Etheridge interview as a budding jazzer that no-one improvised using scales until 1959 ....

Even though it's not actually true. (Imagine my confusion when I first went to Barry Harris’s class a few years later.)

I think if you get to the point where you can prove that factoid wrong, you'll be OK, and maybe that's the point.

Lies-to-children

Not all students are equal. When someone like Gwilym Simcock - a student at an elite music specialist school and someone who scored highest on his instrumental grade exams in the history of the exams - heard Jarrett and was told about chord scales he was ready to go in a way that most pianists - let alone guitar players - simply aren't. You don't have to teach people like that. A lot of the time - especially (but not only) with guitarists, don't mean to be horrible - you have to build the musician.

(And obviously Gwilym is a very post modal style of player.)

I think with guitar tab, YouTube and a guitar 'education' industry that fixates on telling people where to put their fingers and so on creates a dependency culture that has to be broken.

[pamosmusic]

There’s been a misunderstanding that we learn scales to directly apply them, as practiced, to music. Which is incorrect, you learn scales as a way to gain facility on the instrument.

You have to learn to sit upright before you even think of running. The better you can navigate the guitar, the more you can say, but you can’t start at whatever Pauln is talking about. You have to start at the start, just like everyone else.

You can’t learn to play the guitar by philosophically discussing theory. You have to play the scales, arpeggios, chord inversions and memorize the note names. Then apply this basic musical knowledge to tunes.

I think I would mostly agree with it — and I get what you’re saying. I don’t think you mean that you don’t actually improvise with scales. Rather that you mean you don’t learn to play your scales in diatonic triads because you’re going to play this big long run of diatonic triads in a solo. Which is totally true. Though maybe one day you’ll get into some Coltrane and find that quite practical.

I suppose what Christian means is that you absolutely will play some diatonic triads in a solo … even if it’s every now and then and it’s two triads in a row or two triads separated but some other stuff, it’s still quite useful to have practiced the raw material.

[Christian Miller]

What I mean is this

How to REALLY turn scales into jazz - Minor II V I line #jazz #bebop #guitar - YouTube

Players like Grant Green play scales all the time and they sound awesome.


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[AllanAllen]

I think I would mostly agree with it — and I get what you’re saying. I don’t think you mean that you don’t actually improvise with scales. Rather that you mean you don’t learn to play your scales in diatonic triads because you’re going to play this big long run of diatonic triads in a solo. Which is totally true. Though maybe one day you’ll get into some Coltrane and find that quite practical.

I suppose what Christian means is that you absolutely will play some diatonic triads in a solo … even if it’s every now and then and it’s two triads in a row or two triads separated but some other stuff, it’s still quite useful to have practiced the raw material.

Yeah, right in the top head here (Bars 5 & 6) Dexter Gordon forgoes the melody to play some diatonic triads and it’s excellent. But he hits them and moves on. Stuff like this makes me think I’m trying to hard to be clever.

You could also do a whole solo with diatonic triads as a bit of fun. It should get a chuckle from anyone paying attention. I like to do this as a “look at my new toy” thing with my band.

I might not be the best role model, since I’m not trying to be a “masterpiece by midnight” NYC jazz musician. I’m just trying to have a little fun playing songs I like.

[Mick-7]

Start with the easiest C Major, see pic below:

At last a diagram that tells us where the good notes are!

Unfortunately only in the Lydian mode though..

Hopefully Ionian will be covered in the next lesson.

[DawgBone]

Practice "Chord Tones" (beginners):

On beats 1 and 3.

Play only the Roots on each chord in a song.

Play only the 3rds on each chord in a song.

Play only the 7ths on each chord in a song.

Play only the 5ths on each chord in a song.

Play only the Roots and 3rds on each chord in a song.

Play only the 7ths and 3rds on each chord in a song.

Play a mixture of all chord tones on each chord in a song.

This beginners practice routine got my ears to hear chord tones. It works

Just found what I plan on practicing next. Thanks Guy Boden.

[Tal_175]

Nothing gets me into a tune better than playing continuous 8th note scales through the changes. It unlocks soloing in many unpredictable ways.

[Jimmy blue note]

Nothing gets me into a tune better than playing continuous 8th note scales through the changes. It unlocks soloing in many unpredictable ways.

Q: What does a guitarist call an 8th note rest?
A: A missed opportunity

[Strat-itis]

Fixed

Q: What does Mancuso call an 8th note rest?
A: A missed opportunity

[Tal_175]

Q: What does a guitarist call an 8th note rest?
A: What does that mean, can I have tabs?

[Jimmy blue note]

Q: What does a guitarist call an 8th note rest?
A: What does that mean, can I have tabs?

Ha. Just had a flashback. When I was learning jazz, nobody really used tabs much... TAB was a piece of paper that we'd use to administer LSD.
Forget the chord patterns. Give me a tab of acid...and make sure the tape recorder is rolling. HA HA

[charlieparker]

Nothing gets me into a tune better than playing continuous 8th note scales through the changes. It unlocks soloing in many unpredictable ways.

That feels a lot like some of the Barry Harris stuff. When you do that do you start at the root at each chord change or do you just start with the next closest note?

[Strat-itis]

Nothing gets me into a tune better than playing continuous 8th note scales through the changes. It unlocks soloing in many unpredictable ways.

That's good stuff. I do the BH scale outlining, but I modify it in addition to his standard way. Change up the contours, scales used, and I do it in faster subdivisions like triplets and 16th notes to also work rhythm.

[Tal_175]

That feels a lot like some of the Barry Harris stuff. When you do that do you start at the root at each chord change or do you just start with the next closest note?

Barry Harris scale exercises start from the root for each chord (or ii-V). Playing continuous scales is what you referred to as starting with the next closest note. I also sometimes do that in a restricted area of the fretboard, like in a one octave-ish area. After playing a chorus that way, I loosen up the lines. Instead of going strictly up or down, I play different patterns but still keep the 8th note density. Then I loosen up even more and gradually just play a solo (not necessarily continuous 8th notes). Alternating the melody of the tune with the 8th note continuous scales is particularly useful in my experience.

[Mick-7]

Nothing gets me into a tune better than playing continuous 8th note scales through the changes. It unlocks soloing in many unpredictable ways.

Yes, this is a practice that Joe Pass recommended - but it has not become passe.

[Christian Miller]

Ha. Just had a flashback. When I was learning jazz, nobody really used tabs much... TAB was a piece of paper that we'd use to administer LSD.
Forget the chord patterns. Give me a tab of acid...and make sure the tape recorder is rolling. HA HA

One of my boring interests along with the genealogy of chord scale theory is the history of tab. So we have tabs hundreds of years ago, and tabs in the last forty or so years. It doesn’t sound like they were used much if at all in the interim.

If so, who first started using them again? Who was the pivotal figure in popularising their use? Did they disappear completely in the centuries between Sylvius Leopold Weiss and 80s shred transcriptions in Guitar magazines?

I’d unironically really like to know.

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[Christian Miller]

Barry Harris scale exercises start from the root for each chord (or ii-V).

They can start from other notes


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[grahambop]

One of my boring interests along with the genealogy of chord scale theory is the history of tab. So we have tabs hundreds of years ago, and tabs in the last forty or so years. It doesn’t sound like they were used much if at all in the interim.

If so, who first started using them again? Who was the pivotal figure in popularising their use? Did they disappear completely in the centuries between Sylvius Leopold Weiss and 80s shred transcriptions in Guitar magazines?

I’d unironically really like to know.

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I think Stefan Grossman was using tab quite early on in his blues guitar books (possibly 60s or 70s?).

[GuyBoden]

That feels a lot like some of the Barry Harris stuff. When you do that do you start at the root at each chord change or do you just start with the next closest note?

Barry Harris scale exercises start from the root for each chord (or ii-V).

You can start on any note you want:

Simple examples below using the Barry Harris Dom rule number 2.