Approaches to Improvisation

[Tal_175]

There is also a comping version of this exercise. Continuous quarter note moving voices through a tune. But that's a different study group.

[Mick-7]

Another strange distinction, I would say an altered dominant is the more usual sound in jazz (when it’s a true functioning dominant) rather than the ‘plain’ chord.

Yeah, I suppose that's true. Frankly, I have no interest in defining what is or is not "outlining the changes," my point was only that I don't think Joe Pass recommended the exercise for that particular purpose, although it can be used for it.

2. You are expected to express harmony, but not necessarily to express *the* harmony. So lines express harmony, but that harmony might break loose from the rhythm section or the lead sheet changes in pretty dramatic ways.

You changed the subject, it was "outlining the chord changes," not "expressing harmony," two different things.

[pamosmusic]

I'd say these 8ths exercises are designed for the 'spider' types. They wouldn't suit a '1 and 3' player.

I'm a '1 and 3' player and, as it happens, so are players like Mr Beaumont who plays a bit like George Benson. On the other hand, the 'spiders' here are pamosmusic, grahambop, CliffR, and so on - all of whom are dead set on the 8ths exercises.

This isn't why I don't like exercises, by the way, I'm just pointing it out. Make of it what you will.

First of all, I guess I’m two pages overdue on saying that that I don’t really use this exercise (though maybe I’ll start).

But aside from that, just say you don’t have the chops for it, Ragman. This is getting exhausting.

[pamosmusic]

Could you elaborate on this? I can see how "numbering" could be seen as sort of redundant shorthand for the actual intervals in play but it still seems useful (or at least harmless) when describing a tone relative to a specific, known chord.

I wouldn’t dare claim to know what’s going on in Christians head, but I think he was being kind of tongue in cheek and alluding to the same thing I was alluding to by asking. Chord tones sound like chord tones when you make them part of a chord.

Here are some responses to the “what is playing changes” questions earlier:

Let me try this.

Jazz lines are kind of expected to express harmony. That’s a part of the idiom.

two important caveats

1. Changes for a tune are probably fluid, even from chorus to chorus on the same performance.

2. You are expected to express harmony, but not necessarily to express *the* harmony. So lines express harmony, but that harmony might break loose from the rhythm section or the lead sheet changes in pretty dramatic ways.

eh? Anyone?

I mean I can play Dm7 Dbo7 Cm7 B7b5 on Bb G7 C-7 F7 I'm still playing chord tones.

A lot of what we call extensions are an emergent property of people not quite reading off the same hymn sheet.

Harmony in a jazz tune is pretty fluid. What’s on the page is very often not what the rhythm section is playing. And the rhythm section isn’t always (probably isn’t) going to play the same thing two choruses in a row.

Chord substitutions are sometimes vertical (hey here’s a Dm7 over this Bbmaj7 to give me a cool sound) but very often, they’re functional like Christian outlined. In either instance it can be a lot more efficient to just think about the harmony happening in the melody rather than the chord plus chord equals chord harmony that you imagine will be happening in the band. And in the case of Christian’s example, it’s not clear it would even be correct to think of them as intervals off the root of the chord of the moment.

It’s also possible Christian was making some wisecrack about figured bass but I won’t touch that one.

[ragman1]

A bigger question might be: do you think exercises are detrimental? That somehow, by practicing exercises, you are harming your actual playing? Interfering with the spontaneous flow that is improvisation, or some

No, I don't think it makes any difference at all.

[GuyBoden]

Yeah, I sort of lose or drift off the tempo at times. I think it's a combination of this being a recent thing to do - while I have done this sort of thing before prior to March 2024 when I temporarily gave up jazz guitar, it's pretty much the first time I've ever done it with the right hand technique I use now. I'm quickly coming to the realisation that I should do all my scale exercises both with I and M and M and I fingerings so that I am comfortable with either finger producing either the downbeat or off-beat. So there's that and probably at times a hesitancy over the notes I want to play, which isn't so much a knowledge of the changes as an (in)ability to translate that onto the fretboard. So I probably should practice a bit slower just for practice purposes since I'm not mad keen on slower tempos unless the person doing it can double time (tbh even 120 BPM isn't regarded for eighth notes as particularly quick and most pros would double time on it).

As a fellow fingerstyle picker, if you've recently started this style of picking, I think you're playing very well.

It takes time, it's taken me five years with very slow improvements, one thing I did noticed was that I play a lot more 'legato' notes than you. I practice a different scale every morning, using the whole fretboard, linking each position.

[James W]

As a fellow right finger style picker, if you've recently started this style of picking, I think you're playing very well.

It takes time, it's taken me five years with very slow improvements, one thing I did noticed was that I play a lot more 'legato' notes than you. I practice a different scale every morning, using the whole fretboard, linking each position.

Cheers, Guy.

One of the advantages of fingerstyle is the classical pedagogy that exists. That's the way to go for improving fingerstyle technique.

[grahambop]

I'd say these 8ths exercises are designed for the 'spider' types. They wouldn't suit a '1 and 3' player.

I'm a '1 and 3' player and, as it happens, so are players like Mr Beaumont who plays a bit like George Benson. On the other hand, the 'spiders' here are pamosmusic, grahambop, CliffR, and so on - all of whom are dead set on the 8ths exercises.

This isn't why I don't like exercises, by the way, I'm just pointing it out. Make of it what you will.

yeah that slacker Benson never plays fast 8th notes.

[grahambop]

To be honest, I'm not finding it useful, despite the fact that I suggested it in my first post. So far all it has shown to me is that there is a deficiency in my ability to express my ideas at faster tempos, which I already knew. That's what I need to work on.

You can play the 8th notes thing as slowly as you like (even at ragman tempo if you want), I think it still helps to develop more flowing and connected lines. And I don’t think it matters if you can’t keep it absolutely continuous (I didn’t in my example posted earlier), it’s still useful.

I did some work on Giant Steps a while back and I was slowly building up connected 8th note lines on it, really at a snail pace at first. But eventually that helped me develop the ability to play something more flowing on it, at a medium tempo.

[Mick-7]

You can play the 8th notes thing as slowly as you like (even at ragman tempo if you want), I think it still helps to develop more flowing and connected lines. And I don’t think it matters if you can’t keep it absolutely continuous (I didn’t in my example posted earlier), it’s still useful.

I did some work on Giant Steps a while back and I was slowly building up 8th note lines on it, really at a snail pace at first. But eventually that helped me develop the ability to play something more flowing on it, at a medium tempo.

I meant that I haven't had any trouble doing the exercise on anything other than tunes with unusual chord changes, such as the Bill Evans tunes Very Early and Re: Person I Knew (which has odd augmented chord movements). I may still use the exercise for tunes like that.

My weakness is not outlining the chord changes, it's playing the melodic lines I hear at faster tempos (I don't play any memorized licks). This seems to be mostly an ear-training issue - brain to fingers translation.

[Christian Miller]

Could you elaborate on this? I can see how "numbering" could be seen as sort of redundant shorthand for the actual intervals in play but it still seems useful (or at least harmless) when describing a tone relative to a specific, known chord.

It’s a bit of a kid really, there’s a time and place where that sort of thing is reasonable - in colouristic post bop harmony and so on. But by and large I think the extension number thing is over used to a comical degree. I find Beato hilarious for this btw, analysing Nirvana this way…

One thing is it’s actually a big thing to not hear ‘upper structures’ as ‘tensions’ but as the legit resolved sound. The lower chord tones can actually sound dissonant in this climate.

This is all Stefon Harris stuff, but the older way of looking at these things is to see them not as related to chord symbols but as alternative chords. Jazz has a layered tonality, a natural product of several musicians improvising on a song together.

In an era before real books these disparities happened even by accident. One person goes to a 3 6 2 5 while another goes to a 1 6 2 5 and so on. Some of these can be understood as harmonically related and others actually aren’t. Even today you can see big disparities in the changes of a tune between one source and another. Good musicians might eliminate the big disparities by ear, but some colour tones and interesting passing dissonances remain and to can hear them on records.

Of course, there’s the very important and conscious practice of chord substitution. Later that got systematised into the chord scale system. But I would argue the altered scale comes from the tritone sub not the other way around haha. You wouldn’t believe the theological arguments you get into about this stuff, but I see my argument as based in the way jazz musicians actually play - which is ‘let’s play Rhythm Changes. 1 2 3 4.’ I’m not much for theory theory…

Chord scale theory engages in a sort of tacit narrative that the whole harmony is somehow composed by the improvisers based on a vanilla chord chart. I would say this does happen for eg Allan Holdsworth tunes where he literally wrote out the scales but it’s at best a partial truth for straightahead jazz playing. Things are much less predictable and managed and I think a lot of beginner and intermediate players get really bent out of shape worrying about x note over y chord, whereas an advanced player wouldn’t be thinking about that stuff in nearly so granular a way.

(Of course today’s musicians are mostly trained in chord scale theory which muddies the waters but it’s important to remember that it did not exist until the late 50s.)

Not all extensions and so on result from this, but quite a lot of them in soloing on changes can be related to this. It’s one reason why I advocate NOT analysing lines over the vanilla chords but examining them on their own terms and only later relating to the changes. This comes a bit from Barry Harris who never much did the vanilla chord tone analysis thing in class when I was there.

Sorry to post a vid but this has specifics:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

To be honest, I'm not finding it useful, despite the fact that I suggested it in my first post. So far all it has shown to me is that there is a deficiency in my ability to express my ideas at faster tempos, which I already knew. That's what I need to work on.

I don’t want to state the obvious, mick, but you’ve been explicit about not actually doing the exercise as described.

Try truly continuous eighth notes. Try starting slow and moving the tempo up. It might be the sort of thing that takes a couple months.

Though I would also say that there’s a lot of value in just cranking the tempo and seeing what you’ve got right now. When you’re working on playing fast, it’s generally good to work on playing the things you like faster, but also to work on just playing fast with the tools you have right now.

I kind of think *resisting* the urge to play eighth notes is important for the latter.

Set drum genius for 300 or something and limit yourself to a single octave and just see what comes out.

[Christian Miller]

I've noticed that some people think they are too good to play scales and arpeggios, learn licks and grips.

Who knows, maybe they are right!

I don't think I'm too good for that stuff.

[Christian Miller]

I wouldn’t dare claim to know what’s going on in Christians head, but I think he was being kind of tongue in cheek and alluding to the same thing I was alluding to by asking. Chord tones sound like chord tones when you make them part of a chord.

Here are some responses to the “what is playing changes” questions earlier:





Harmony in a jazz tune is pretty fluid. What’s on the page is very often not what the rhythm section is playing. And the rhythm section isn’t always (probably isn’t) going to play the same thing two choruses in a row.

Chord substitutions are sometimes vertical (hey here’s a Dm7 over this Bbmaj7 to give me a cool sound) but very often, they’re functional like Christian outlined. In either instance it can be a lot more efficient to just think about the harmony happening in the melody rather than the chord plus chord equals chord harmony that you imagine will be happening in the band. And in the case of Christian’s example, it’s not clear it would even be correct to think of them as intervals off the root of the chord of the moment.

I missed this, and yes this pretty much sums it up.

It’s also possible Christian was making some wisecrack about figured bass but I won’t touch that one.

That's a reasonable assumption in general, but in this case false.

[grahambop]

Another thing I’ve noticed with practising a lot of 8th note lines is that I think it can improve your time, at least it’s helped me in that regard. The clip I posted was played without any backing track or metronome, but I was able to keep a pretty consistent beat.

I think at first you still need to think about the time while you’re doing it, but the steady repetition of notes seems to help keep an accurate momentum going, as it were. Over time it sort of develops an internal ‘clock’ or feeling of where the beats are.

[BreckerFan]

Yeah, I suppose that's true. Frankly, I have no interest in defining what is or is not "outlining the changes," my point was only that I don't think Joe Pass recommended the exercise for that particular purpose, although it can be used for it.



You changed the subject, it was "outlining the chord changes," not "expressing harmony," two different things.

The thing is, you say you're not interested in defining it, but then you immediately start using an unstated definition, which you've been using to tell people they aren't doing it right. It's also not a very good definition, for reasons I've explained.

There might be a clue here as to why these threads tend to spiral.

[Tal_175]

I just did a quick take on Yesterday's. Messed up a bit in the end I think. Anyway, I may post a longer one with triplets later if I find some time. I think triplets sound better with this exercise.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JQ7dvaEqLaI

[pamosmusic]

I just did a quick take on Yesterday's. Messed up a bit in the end I think. Anyway, I may post a longer one with triplets later if I find some time. I think triplets sound better with this exercise.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JQ7dvaEqLaI

You mentioned a few times that you like this for connecting chord scales but I noticed a lot of straightforward arpeggiation in this. Any particular reason?

[Tal_175]

You mentioned a few times that you like this for connecting chord scales but I noticed a lot of straightforward arpeggiation in this. Any particular reason?

I thought I was mixing scales and arpeggios. But you are right, I normally either only do connecting scales or connecting arpeggios as an exercise. It's just that connecting strict scales sound a bit dry which is fine when practicing but I was recording this one so I sold out a bit.

[GuyBoden]

I just did a quick take on Yesterday's. Messed up a bit in the end I think. Anyway, I may post a longer one with triplets later if I find some time. I think triplets sound better with this exercise.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JQ7dvaEqLaI

Well done for playing without backing, I know "Yesterday's" very well, I can hear you making the changes.

[charlieparker]

I started a thread about starting an improvisation study group but it devolved into a debate on how we should approach it. So I'm trying again with this thread, which can become a study group if there's enough interest in it.

In the other thread { Here: Improv Study Group? }
I said: "Is there interest in starting a thread in which we study and compare ways of creating lines that flow over the chord changes? That is, approaches or techniques to connect chord tones and scales to create good sounding lines and melodies. In other threads, people have mentioned techniques like practicing playing 8th note lines over the chord changes, using Barry Harris strategies, etc. We could record or write down examples that illustrate the improvisation approaches we use."

Thought I'd start the thread with an improv approach I learned from Joe Pass at a guitar workshop, which is:
Take a tune you're learning and play continuous 8th note lines over the chord changes; as a way to explore the tunes harmonic structure and find linear ways to connect the chords. The point is to keep playing, keep responding to what you're hearing, rather than starting and stopping, glossing over chord changes you may find difficult, etc. You would play the chord changes at the fastest tempo at which you can manage to play continuous 8th notes, if it's only 65-70 bpm at first, that's just fine. Or alternatively you could play quarter notes at a faster tempo.

I have recorded an example of myself using this method on "Have You Met Miss Jones" with a backing track at 120 bpm. This is faster than I would normally play an unfamiliar tune but the tune is not completely new to me (I hadn't played it in a long time though). At this stage (of my example) I'm mostly exploring the chord changes, not striving to be musically coherent, that will come as I continue the practice.

Meeting Miss Jones 01 (8th notes improv) - Box.com

Sounded pretty good but not like continuous 8ths. Am I missing something?

[pamosmusic]

Sounded pretty good but not like continuous 8ths. Am I missing something?

so much

[charlieparker]

These threads seem to devolve into people arguing about how the study group should be done rather than actually doing it. Lost of nits and picks. Thank you to those who actually attempted it.

[Mick-7]

I don’t want to state the obvious, mick, but you’ve been explicit about not actually doing the exercise as described.

Of course I've done it, I wouldn't say I haven't found it useful if I hadn't! I just haven't posted a recording of myself doing it. But I do think it can be useful for tunes that are new to me, or that have odd changes like those I mentioned.

Sounded pretty good but not like continuous 8ths. Am I missing something?

Yes, I said I was ambivalent about it but I'll post something for you naysayers.

[pamosmusic]

Of course I've done it, I wouldn't say I haven't found it useful if I hadn't! I just haven't posted a recording of myself doing it. But I do think it can be useful for tunes that are new to me, or that have odd changes like those I mentioned.

Yes, I said I was ambivalent about it but I'll post something for you naysayers.

I’m not sure I expect much of anything to be helpful in less than a few weeks.