Approaches to Improvisation

[lawson-stone]

My dog ate my homework.

I ate my dog's homework. I don't feel so good, actually...

[lawson-stone]

So I decided to try "Wave" with the same constraints: predominantly uninterrupted 8th notes, focus on chord tones, leading tones, chromatic linking... not all executed with equal success here, but hey it IS IMPROVISATION mistakes and all.
I find this tune harder than "Miss Jones" but I enjoy it.

[CliffR]

Brought my cat Crowley back from the claw salon in time to record this little (improvised) exercise over All The Things You Are:

[lawson-stone]

I went back and found my attempt at Jimmy Raney's "example" solo over Rhythm Changes. It meets many of the criteria we've toss around: mainly 8th notes, no chords, lots and lots of chord tones and scale fragments tied to chords. This thing was a challenge to learn and play and it was an example of how memorizing a great solo can actually advance one's own playing by introducing lots of new vocabulary, fingerings one hadn't thought to try, and with Raney you are always looking at long, long lines that have a sinewy kind of logic that is amazing.
My amp thought it had been sold to a real jazz guitar player!

[grahambop]

A couple of takes on Just Friends. Can't quite manage 100% continuous 8th notes at this tempo, but close.

Incidentally, this is the first recording I’ve made with the Ibanez AS93 semi-hollow I bought recently. I recorded it via the direct out on the DV Little Jazz.

[lawson-stone]

And here is a chorus of rhythm changes from the celebrated (but seldom actually played-from) Joe Pass Guitar Style.This sets the baseline for "8th note study making the changes" and was a ton of fun to learn. I also was experimenting with an idea of Christian Miller's about slurring on certain beats to get more of a swing feel. Moved it a bit from the "rikki-tikki" feeling that I am famous for...

[lawson-stone]

Guys I had, had, to share this. It's the rhythm changes chorus from Joe Pass Guitar Style, but I had found the ACTUALY COMPING TRACK RECORDED BY JOE PASS! So he's comping and yours truly is playing the solo. Just hearing Joe count it off was really cool. I also found it so easy to play against his comping. The man was amazing, but here I realized how well he could signal other musicians what was happening.
I promise no more of these, but this was too much fun to leave out.

[James W]

Here as promised is my attempt at ATTYA -

[CliffR]

Guys I had, had, to share this. It's the rhythm changes chorus from Joe Pass Guitar Style, but I had found the ACTUALY COMPING TRACK RECORDED BY JOE PASS! So he's comping and yours truly is playing the solo. Just hearing Joe count it off was really cool. I also found it so easy to play against his comping. The man was amazing, but here I realized how well he could signal other musicians what was happening.
I promise no more of these, but this was too much fun to leave out.

Your playing sounds great! But the comping track is not audible. Never mind - I was only listening to one audio channel.

[CliffR]

Not continuous 8ths. Here I'm trying to improvise lines that target the third of each chord in an F blues turnaround - so F7, D7, Gm7 and C7.

[CliffR]

Here as promised is my attempt at ATTYA -

I hesitate to offer advice or criticism, since I view myself as a beginner here, but I'd recommend James that you slow the tempo down some. Not sure it it's your technique or knowledge of the changes - or both - but it seems like this is a little too fast for you to keep up with.

[RLetson]

Please tell me if I'm being dense, but it seems to me that an all-eighths exercise is just that--a skill-building activity in which one 1) maintains a rigid metrical framework while 2) finding notes that connect to but expand or vary the as-written tune. An actual, on-purpose, expressive improvisatory passage would not limit itself to any arbitrary single-factor rule. In Lawson's ATTYA demo, it is the departures from metronomic straight-eighths that make the passage interesting musically. It's even more noticeable in the "Wave" video. So the exercise amounts to "make your fingers operate in this limited way at this tempo while also finding interesting or satisfying notes that are not just the melody"--right?

But then, I don't take solos and have no ability to produce linear improvisation at all, so what do I know.

[CliffR]

Please tell me if I'm being dense, but it seems to me that an all-eighths exercise is just that--a skill-building activity in which one 1) maintains a rigid metrical framework while 2) finding notes that connect to but expand or vary the as-written tune. An actual, on-purpose, expressive improvisatory passage would not limit itself to any arbitrary single-factor rule. In Lawson's ATTYA demo, it is the departures from metronomic straight-eighths that make the passage interesting musically. It's even more noticeable in the "Wave" video. So the exercise amounts to "make your fingers operate in this limited way at this tempo while also finding interesting or satisfying notes that are not just the melody"--right?

But then, I don't take solos and have no ability to produce linear improvisation at all, so what do I know.

Right. Exactly - just an exercise that we hope leads to better facility to actually improvise in the moment. But nobody expects actual musical improvisation to sound like the results of this exercise.

[Mick-7]

The fact of your playing with a backing track, but that backing track being tough to hear in the recording is interesting. I don’t really hear the changes in long stretches of your playing.

So if we’re at a point where we’re playing mostly scales and also trying to hear the changes, I think Miss Jones is the sort of tune that exposes some short comings there.

It's the "Giant Steps" chord changes in the bridge that are challenging.

I could do it with just a metronome/drum machine, I doubt the bass player makes much of a difference, and it is easier at slower speeds, say Graham's 140 bpm (I'll try that). I was not trying to outline the changes, just be musical - which I find harder to do at quick tempos.

It is a good exercise for improving one's ability to outline the changes, however, eliminating rhythmic variety when I'm improvising does not "force my ear into building better melodies," as stated in the Joe Pass book. As an exercise (it does say "build" melodies), played at a slow speed, it could do that but in real time at moderate to fast tempos, it does the opposite for me: encourages me to try to outline the chords rather than play good melodies. But it does expose weaknesses in my ability to execute my ideas, which is helpful.

I'm thinking the description in the Pass book of this exercise is misleading, makes it sound like you should try to play continuous notes while improvising, pretty sure that was not what he was suggesting.

So the exercise amounts to "make your fingers operate in this limited way at this tempo while also finding interesting or satisfying notes that are not just the melody" -- right?

Yes, that sounds about right, it's an improvisation study, not a rule one should follow.

[pamosmusic]

It's the "Giant Steps" chord changes in the bridge that are challenging.

It’s actually not those changes that I think are the challenge here. They’re so remotely related that just changing the chord scale is enough to make the motion apparent.

Not the case for the A sections. They’re pretty much just In The Key Of F, with a little F# now and again. So if you want to hear the changes, you have to be a little more keyed into the changes themselves. Chord scales won’t really get you there, at least not without a lot of precision.

So that’s the spot where I think a listener might lose the plot without that backing track. And where a player might not realize they’re losing it.

I'm thinking the description in the Pass book of this exercise is misleading, makes it sound like you should try to play continuous notes while improvising, pretty sure that was not what he was suggesting.

Of course he wasnt suggesting people actually solo in only eighth notes. But, quoting from Guy, here, it’s definitely what he was suggesting for practice. Supported by the written solos themselves.

Joe Pass Book Quote: "These solos are in straight 8th-notes. By eliminating rhythmic variety, you force the ear into building better melodies. 8th-note studies also tend to avoid the practice of playing memorized licks."

Is this Quote above the definitive answer to the 'Approach to Improvisation' thread?

[Mick-7]

Hi Jazzers, I'm not sure if this is the right thread but I worked on this exercise a while back but I can't remember where I got the idea. I know it's a 4 note grouping concept but I'm trying to find the work book I got the idea from. Anybody have any suggestions?

Bewildered, Jeff
P.S. I do have Bergonzi's Melodic Structures Book. Maybe it's an offshoot of this book?

I can't tell you the source of your exercise but it appears to be based on the short motif development concept, i.e., take a a 4-5 note phrase and alter it to fit the chord changes. Randy Vincent has a book about it... and I'm sure that Christian has done a video on it.

[pamosmusic]

I can't tell you the source of your exercise but it appears to be based on the short motif development concept, i.e., take a a 4-5 note phrase and alter it to fit the chord changes. Randy Vincent has a book about it... and I'm sure that Christian has done a video on it.

You talking about the Cellular Approach Randy Vincent book?

that’s a good one.

[Mick-7]

Not the case for the A sections. They’re pretty much just In The Key Of F, with a little F# now and again. So if you want to hear the changes, you have to be a little more keyed into the changes themselves. Chord scales won’t really get you there, at least not without a lot of precision.

So that’s the spot where I think a listener might lose the plot without that backing track. And where a player might not realize they’re losing it.

I think you'd have to reference the melody to do that, the chord changes are too common, which is another exercise we could work on, i.e., improvising on the melody, I'd like to do that.

You talking about the Cellular Approach Randy Vincent book? that’s a good one.

I think so? I don't have the book. And didn't Bergonzi write something on it too? (as was suggested).

[pamosmusic]

I think you'd have to reference the melody to do that, the chord changes are too common, which is another exercise we could work on, i.e., improvising on the melody, I'd like to do that.

You wouldn’t have reference the melody. You could just reference the changes more explicitly … guide tones, maybe. But the melody is fun too …

… what’s that you say?

Here's that:

Still If I Were a Bell ... this time in Gb.

We're working with guide tone lines and with motifs from the melody. Video's a little shoddy, but I'm working on it.

[supersoul]

Here's one... continuous 8ths over Autumn Leaves.

[James W]

I hesitate to offer advice or criticism, since I view myself as a beginner here, but I'd recommend James that you slow the tempo down some. Not sure it it's your technique or knowledge of the changes - or both - but it seems like this is a little too fast for you to keep up with.

Yeah, I sort of lose or drift off the tempo at times. I think it's a combination of this being a recent thing to do - while I have done this sort of thing before prior to March 2024 when I temporarily gave up jazz guitar, it's pretty much the first time I've ever done it with the right hand technique I use now. I'm quickly coming to the realisation that I should do all my scale exercises both with I and M and M and I fingerings so that I am comfortable with either finger producing either the downbeat or off-beat. So there's that and probably at times a hesitancy over the notes I want to play, which isn't so much a knowledge of the changes as an (in)ability to translate that onto the fretboard. So I probably should practice a bit slower just for practice purposes since I'm not mad keen on slower tempos unless the person doing it can double time (tbh even 120 BPM isn't regarded for eighth notes as particularly quick and most pros would double time on it).

[Tal_175]

So the exercise amounts to "make your fingers operate in this limited way at this tempo while also finding interesting or satisfying notes that are not just the melody"--right?

It's a bit more structured than that. The idea is to outline the changes of a tune with continuous 8th note lines. It should be easy to hear the changes without accompany.

Making half-step motions to target a chord tone at each chord change, and playing mostly chord tones on the downbeats when using scalar lines, works well.

[Mick-7]

It's a bit more structured than that. The idea is to outline the changes of a tune with continuous 8th note lines. It should be easy to hear the changes without accompany.

Making half-step motions to target a chord tone at each chord change, and playing mostly chord tones on the downbeats when using scalar lines, works well.

That was Adam Rogers version of the exercise (according to BreckerFan), Joe Pass recommended using it to develop better melodic lines, he never said anything about "outlining the changes."

[Tal_175]

That was Adam Rogers version of the exercise (according to BreckerFan), Joe Pass recommended using it to develop better melodic lines, he never said anything about "outlining the changes."

I think with Joe Pass, it goes without saying as evident in the exercises that follow the exercise description.

[James W]

That was Adam Rogers version of the exercise (according to BreckerFan), Joe Pass recommended using it to develop better melodic lines, he never said anything about "outlining the changes."

Mick, you tend in some of your recent posts to talk as though creating good melodic lines and outlining the changes are mutually exclusive things. I don't think that's the case at all.