Approaches to Improvisation

[grahambop]

Time does move along for us all.

I've seen him live recently and...he's still got it.

yeah he’s only 60, some of us are older than that and still functioning (so far!).

[ragman1]

yeah he’s only 60, some of us are older than that and still functioning (so far!).

He's 60. Now I've got it. He used to be some hotshot player back whenever. I've been here since 2007 and never heard of him. Suddenly he's all the rage and I'm wondering why he sounds tired.

But, in the meantime, we're still talking about dead players like they're immortal - Pass, Montgomery, Raney, Reinhardt, you name it. And a whole host of living ones like Scofield, Bernstein, Van Ruller... you know that list.

So I'm wondering, not unnaturally, why Adam Rogers is suddenly flavour of the month out of nowhere.

Fair question, I reckon.

[Christian Miller]

Well I mean just because you haven’t noticed him much before doesn’t mean we haven’t been checking him out for years.

I mean here’s a video I did two years ago lol

I was posting bits of the transcription on here lol

BreckerFan has been posting AR transcriptions for a year or more….

So yeah like most of us, I’ve been listening to him for years and I’ve seen him live a few times. I’d rank him very highly as one of the best players around. He records a lot, and is on loads of other people’s records. A bit like Pete

First time I heard him was at a late night jam session with Binney back in 2005 or something … didn’t really get him at first.

I think his 335 style is kind of very pure and precise. The subtlety is all in the details. His time feel is incredibly good. The tone and articulation is incredibly uniform and legato …. It takes a little while to get into. For years I had him down as a cerebral player. But I’ve realised he absolutely isn’t mechanical.

And then there’s the tele and strat thing. His style does depend quite a bit on the guitar he’s playing, and he seems happy to go with that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BreckerFan]

I don't think he's "suddenly all the rage". He's never been front page of guitar magazines big, but people know who he is. I mean, he's played with Brecker, Chris Potter, and Ravi Coltrane. And for the past couple years he's been the touring guitarist for Steely Dan. I think you just didn't know who he is (which is fine). He has been a little quiet recently, no news of any new music in the works that I'm aware of. He's on the adjunct list at NYU, might just be content to teach and...tour with Steely Dan lol.

As for whether he sounds tired...again, I've seen him live a couple times in the past several months. Not tired at all.

[pamosmusic]

He's 60. Now I've got it. He used to be some hotshot player back whenever. I've been here since 2007 and never heard of him. Suddenly he's all the rage and I'm wondering why he sounds tired.

But, in the meantime, we're still talking about dead players like they're immortal - Pass, Montgomery, Raney, Reinhardt, you name it. And a whole host of living ones like Scofield, Bernstein, Van Ruller... you know that list.

So I'm wondering, not unnaturally, why Adam Rogers is suddenly flavour of the month out of nowhere.

Fair question, I reckon.

Friend of mine gave me a cd of Sight in 2009.

[ragman1]

I don't think he's "suddenly all the rage"

I mean here, now, on the forum.

[pamosmusic]

I mean here, now, on the forum.

I would refer you to those threads with the polls on forum member age.

[BreckerFan]

I think he just came up and people started talking about him. There's no funny business afoot.

[ragman1]

I think he just came up and people started talking about him. There's no funny business afoot.

Yes, absolutely. He just hadn't registered with me before, for some reason. Sorry about that, fans!

[pamosmusic]

Serious answer, he was pretty prolific as a leader up until maybe 2010 or something? Then a long gap, then an album or two in the late 2010s, then no more.

He's been way more active recording as a sideman, gigging in New York, teaching.

So maybe it's the last five years or so of streaming of club dates being more of a thing, and the proliferation of the online teaching platforms like TrueFire and My Music Masterclass, YouTube stuff generally, etc.

[kris]

I mean here, now, on the forum.

I know Adam Rogers very well and very long time...:-)
There was a period when I wanted to take lessons from him on-line.
A very good jazz guitarist.
Forum - I think you don"t follow it enough.

[James W]

So much for my attempt to divert the Adam Rogers discussion onto a separate thread.
Silly Ragman with his nonsense.

[ragman1]

So if he's so good why isn't he out there gigging, making, albums, front name, etc, etc?

He seems to be a reluctant performer, maybe. I've seen them before, I knew quite a few. They're basically introverts who prefer the side avenues like teaching, online stuff, and all that. They've usually done this and that onstage but it's not really what they want.

There's also something else. If you google his biography or articles about him there's absolutely nothing about his personal life. And now he's 60. By this time we normally know a little about well known players.

[CliffR]

One useful aspect of this 8th's exercise that I have not seen discussed (or I overlooked it) is that if your goal is to smoothly connect chords, and get the sound of the harmony in your lines, you will often need one of several devices.
A chromatic note, an enclosure, doubled note etc, in order to land on your desired target.
I have found that being able to do that on the fly is extremely useful for me.

Yes! A few pages back I posted a variation where I'm always targeting the 3rd of each upcoming chord. This - for me at least - is a bit more challenging, since the next available target is not necessarily 1-2 semitones away from where I already am on the 4 or 4-and of the previous chord. In this case, I found like you say that chromatics, enclosures etc are an enormous help.

[grahambop]

Friend of mine gave me a cd of Sight in 2009.

I became aware of Adam Rogers in 2007, because I saw the Mingus Big Band that year (the band run by Mingus’ widow Sue) at Brecon, and they were so good that as soon as I got home I bought their 2002 CD Tonight at Noon, which happens to feature some great nylon-string playing by Adam. (I don’t think he was at the Brecon gig though, I would have remembered that).

Here’s a photo from the CD booklet (Elvis Costello was just there as a guest vocalist on one track, he was not a regular member of the band!).

[kris]

So if he's so good why isn't he out there gigging, making, albums, front name, etc, etc?

He seems to be a reluctant performer, maybe. I've seen them before, I knew quite a few. They're basically introverts who prefer the side avenues like teaching, online stuff, and all that. They've usually done this and that onstage but it's not really what they want.

There's also something else. If you google his biography or articles about him there's absolutely nothing about his personal life. And now he's 60. By this time we normally know a little about well known players.

Guitar | Adam Rogers Music | United States

[Question]

Hi CliffR,

you are on the right track. I never really analyzed it as much as you have, rather I just spent years constructing good lines over songs or short chord sequences and writing them into my practice book. (which is currently 230 pages!)
Not licks (I am really weak at remembering specific licks) but rather concepts of where the "good" tones are and how to place them rhythmically to imply the sound of any given chord type.

I find that I can now find good resolutions by using enclosures, chromatic, doubled notes etc. in real time regardless of the number of notes or rhythm in a phrase. You might find that your method works well in 4/4 but not in other situations. (Very Early is in 3/4 and I don't notice any adjustment). Try it in 3/4 and see if it still works for you.

I don't know if the way that I learned to do this was good or efficient, but I rarely separated what I was learning from the songs by turning them into isolated exercises.

Also playing bass and guitar in equal measure from the very beginning has had a sort of "cross-pollination" advantage especially in this target-tone concept.

Hope that helps!

[CliffR]

Hi CliffR,

you are on the right track. I never really analyzed it as much as you have, rather I just spent years constructing good lines over songs or short chord sequences and writing them into my practice book. (which is currently 230 pages!)
Not licks (I am really weak at remembering specific licks) but rather concepts of where the "good" tones are and how to place them rhythmically to imply the sound of any given chord type.

I find that I can now find good resolutions by using enclosures, chromatic, doubled notes etc. in real time regardless of the number of notes or rhythm in a phrase. You might find that your method works well in 4/4 but not in other situations. (Very Early is in 3/4 and I don't notice any adjustment). Try it in 3/4 and see if it still works for you.

I don't know if the way that I learned to do this was good or efficient, but I rarely separated what I was learning from the songs by turning them into isolated exercises.

Also playing bass and guitar in equal measure from the very beginning has had a sort of "cross-pollination" advantage especially in this target-tone concept.

Hope that helps!

Hi Question - many thanks! It does indeed help!

My method isn't working for me yet in 4/4, let alone 3/4 . But I only started a few days ago and hope to persist. I too have spent a lot of time composing/constructing lines, but rarely writing them down or remembering them for long . They come out infrequently in my playing unless I consciously ahead of time choose to use them. I'm hoping practicing something like this targeting exercise will help me develop more in-the-moment freedom.

[James W]

Hi CliffR,

you are on the right track. I never really analyzed it as much as you have, rather I just spent years constructing good lines over songs or short chord sequences and writing them into my practice book. (which is currently 230 pages!)
Not licks (I am really weak at remembering specific licks) but rather concepts of where the "good" tones are and how to place them rhythmically to imply the sound of any given chord type.

I find that I can now find good resolutions by using enclosures, chromatic, doubled notes etc. in real time regardless of the number of notes or rhythm in a phrase. You might find that your method works well in 4/4 but not in other situations. (Very Early is in 3/4 and I don't notice any adjustment). Try it in 3/4 and see if it still works for you.

I don't know if the way that I learned to do this was good or efficient, but I rarely separated what I was learning from the songs by turning them into isolated exercises.

Also playing bass and guitar in equal measure from the very beginning has had a sort of "cross-pollination" advantage especially in this target-tone concept.

Hope that helps!

Could you say a bit about how you differentiate lines (you've constructed) from licks (which you don't remember)? Is it a case that it's the process of constructing lines that you internalise, rather than the lines themselves?

[grahambop]

Maybe a rather advanced topic, but I like the way guys like Adam Rogers can play lines that sound simultaneously ‘in’ and ‘out’ with respect to the chord changes. One of his masterclass videos is very helpful for this, it explains some of his approaches. Basically he plays lines using strong musical structures over the chord (i.e. scale or arpeggio/triad based) which share some chord tones with it, but also contain quite ‘out’ notes too.

Here’s the trailer which gives a bit of it.

[ragman1]

Yes, he's a teacher really, rather than a 'star'.

(He also does what I'd do over a modal Dm, use mel minors in 3rds, Dm, Fm and Abm (Db) sshh)

[pamosmusic]

So if he's so good why isn't he out there gigging, making, albums, front name, etc, etc?

He seems to be a reluctant performer, maybe. I've seen them before, I knew quite a few. They're basically introverts who prefer the side avenues like teaching, online stuff, and all that. They've usually done this and that onstage but it's not really what they want.

There's also something else. If you google his biography or articles about him there's absolutely nothing about his personal life. And now he's 60. By this time we normally know a little about well known players.

If you can google his personal life, you can google his career. He’s gigging and recording constantly. Just not as a leader.

Hes one of the best handful of guitarists in the world and has been for twenty five years.

You don’t know him. But also you’re Ragman so who cares?

[Question]

Hi James,

I will try! I am not hyper-systematic.

My practice book consists of three main things, Bass lines transcribed from records, melodic ideas transcribed from recordings and the majority is probably lines that I have discovered through practice. Many if not most are not transcribed from guitar players.

The act of writing them down helps me to internalize the concepts, but for some reason I rarely play them as i have notated them.
When periodically reviewing my book, I realize that I am using what the concept that I learned was, but never play it exactly as I have written it.

For me the best lines are the ones which can be instantly molded to fit any musical situation. time signature etc..

The lines that I notate almost always have a resolution so that what comes before the resolution can be rhythmically or even melodically changed.

So I think a "Lick" is something that one would play as an exact set of notes in an exact rhythm, which is something that I don't do well.

I don't know if I have clarified anything!

[pamosmusic]

Maybe a rather advanced topic, but I like the way guys like Adam Rogers can play lines that sound simultaneously ‘in’ and ‘out’ with respect to the chord changes. One of his masterclass videos is very helpful for this, it explains some of his approaches. Basically he plays lines using strong musical structures over the chord (i.e. scale or arpeggio/triad based) which share some chord tones with it, but also contain quite ‘out’ notes too.

Here’s the trailer which gives a bit of it.

If I remember right he likes stuff that shares the guide tones with the original chord. Wild stuff.

[kris]

Yes, he's a teacher really, rather than a 'star'.

(He also does what I'd do over a modal Dm, use mel minors in 3rds, Dm, Fm and Abm (Db) sshh)

I don't understand why you write such nonsense...