Approaches to Improvisation

[Strat-itis]

We need the ragman intervention.

Step 1: Admit that the endless pontification doesn't prove anything.
Step 2: Actually practice coherent solo lines.
Etc

[Tal_175]

Maybe a rather advanced topic, but I like the way guys like Adam Rogers can play lines that sound simultaneously ‘in’ and ‘out’ with respect to the chord changes. One of his masterclass videos is very helpful for this, it explains some of his approaches. Basically he plays lines using strong musical structures over the chord (i.e. scale or arpeggio/triad based) which share some chord tones with it, but also contain quite ‘out’ notes too.

Here’s the trailer which gives a bit of it.

I wonder why he doesn't describe the ideas simply as playing substitutions*. What he shows in the trailer are common substitution ideas. D minor subbed with D7alt (secondary dominant) and D minor subbed with Dmin7b5 (modal interchange). It's an interesting way to look at these substitutions.

*Technically they may be called reharmonizations, rather than substitutions.

[James W]

Hi James,

I will try! I am not hyper-systematic.

My practice book consists of three main things, Bass lines transcribed from records, melodic ideas transcribed from recordings and the majority is probably lines that I have discovered through practice. Many if not most are not transcribed from guitar players.

The act of writing them down helps me to internalize the concepts, but for some reason I rarely play them as i have notated them.
When periodically reviewing my book, I realize that I am using what the concept that I learned was, but never play it exactly as I have written it.

For me the best lines are the ones which can be instantly molded to fit any musical situation. time signature etc..

The lines that I notate almost always have a resolution so that what comes before the resolution can be rhythmically or even melodically changed.

So I think a "Lick" is something that one would play as an exact set of notes in an exact rhythm, which is something that I don't do well.

I don't know if I have clarified anything!

Yes thanks. Yes, it's always good to vary ideas whether you want to call it a line or lick...

[James W]

I wonder why he doesn't describe the ideas simply as playing substitutions*. What he shows in the trailer are common substitution ideas. D minor subbed with D7alt (secondary dominant) and D minor subbed with Dmin7b5 (modal interchange). It's an interesting way to look at these substitutions.

*Technically they may be called reharmonizations, rather than substitutions.

From what I recall he explores more uncommon sounds by adding other non-diatonic notes to the triad.

[Tal_175]

From what I recall he explores more uncommon sounds by adding other non-diatonic notes to the triad.

In the video he describes the resulting set of notes (non-diatonic notes added to a triad) as common scales which amount to common substitutions (at least the examples in the video). It's interesting that he is arriving at these common substitutions with a different thought process.

[James W]

In the video he describes the resulting set of notes (non-diatonic notes added to a triad) as common scales which amount to common substitutions (at least the examples in the video). It's interesting that he is arriving at these common substitutions with a different thought process.

Yes. The video is only a taster though.

[Tal_175]

... I just spent years constructing good lines over songs or short chord sequences and writing them into my practice book. (which is currently 230 pages!)

I construct lines too but I don't write them down. If I really like a idea, I make a mental note and try to remember it but I don't think I can revisit everything I construct. Do you find it beneficial to write them all down? Do you revisit them?

[GuyBoden]

I notate licks I like, but I don't remember many, unless I play the licks everyday when practicing songs.

[pamosmusic]

In the video he describes the resulting set of notes (non-diatonic notes added to a triad) as common scales which amount to common substitutions (at least the examples in the video). It's interesting that he is arriving at these common substitutions with a different thought process.

Bat signal to Brecker. I don’t remember it all, but if I remember he keeps going down this road … basically anything with a C and F he’ll play over Dm7.

[James W]

Bat signal to Brecker. I don’t remember it all, but if I remember he keeps going down this road … basically anything with a C and F he’ll play over Dm7.

I don't have access currently to my laptop, otherwise I would tell everyone specifically what he does. It's definitely along the lines of what you say here though.

[grahambop]

Yes in the full video he plays all sorts of scalar lines and triadic phrases over the Dm, some with only one or two notes that ‘fit’, so he can make it sound as ‘out’ as he wants, depending on the degree of ‘discrepancy’, if that makes sense.

Jerry Bergonzi also does stuff like this, but a bit less systematically as I recall, i.e. he will play a line for a couple of bars or so that is very logical within itself but sounds completely unrelated to the prevailing chords, then brings it back ‘in’. He explains it as ‘melody always trumps harmony’.

[pamosmusic]

He explains it as ‘melody always trumps harmony’.

Every time I say this on here everyone calls me an idiot

[Christian Miller]

I’d like to have as bad a playing career as Adam lol


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[grahambop]

Some other things I’ve been getting into are pentatonic patterns and triad pairs (got some stuff from Bergonzi on these), also a masterclass video from that Chad LB guy on melodic cells (sort of a Brecker type thing). Just interested in getting more modern stuff into my playing really.

[pamosmusic]

Some other things I’ve been getting into are pentatonic patterns and triad pairs (got some stuff from Bergonzi on these), also a masterclass video from that Chad LB guy on melodic cells (sort of a Brecker type thing). Just interested in getting more modern stuff into my playing really.

Yeah. Apropos of the thread title, I’d be interested in how you incorporate this stuff.

I have a beboppy flavor that I can’t and don’t really want to shake but also love those modern sounds from dudes like Adam.

How are you making it happen

EDIT: an example for me is some of these Adam Rogers things. I like Maj7 a half step down of the minor. It’s that guide tone thing and sounds cool. So like … Abmaj7 over Am7 and anything Am7 goes over … so Abmaj7 over Am7, D7, maybe other dominants, Cmaj7, Fmaj7, F#m7b5.

So focusing on that one structure let me add some bebop vocabulary in and that sort of thing.

[lawson-stone]

Serious answer, he was pretty prolific as a leader up until maybe 2010 or something? Then a long gap, then an album or two in the late 2010s, then no more.

He's been way more active recording as a sideman, gigging in New York, teaching.

So maybe it's the last five years or so of streaming of club dates being more of a thing, and the proliferation of the online teaching platforms like TrueFire and My Music Masterclass, YouTube stuff generally, etc.

Sounds to me like that translates into "he has been actually making a living playing the guitar and otherwise having a normal life"

[lawson-stone]

So if he's so good why isn't he out there gigging, making, albums, front name, etc, etc?

He seems to be a reluctant performer, maybe. I've seen them before, I knew quite a few. They're basically introverts who prefer the side avenues like teaching, online stuff, and all that. They've usually done this and that onstage but it's not really what they want.

There's also something else. If you google his biography or articles about him there's absolutely nothing about his personal life. And now he's 60. By this time we normally know a little about well known players.

I am always amazed that just as I start thinking you might have something useful to say, you start something crazy like this "Who is Adam Rogers" thing. With every post the respect folks have for your opinion drops with a kind of clunking sound.

[pamosmusic]

Sounds to me like that translates into "he has been actually making a living playing the guitar and otherwise having a normal life"

Honestly maybe less so than the others?

I mean all these jazz guitarists have laid back dad energy, Adam included (from the two times or whatever that Ive briefly met him).

But Adam is also playing stadiums with Steely Dan.

So he’s kind of an actual rock star? He just isn’t weird about it.

(One of the times I met him was after he was playing and another time he was sitting outside the NYU music building eating while I was waiting for a friend and I didn’t recognize him until my buddy came out to let me in and was like “hey Adam.”)

[Question]

I construct lines too but I don't write them down. If I really like a idea, I make a mental note and try to remember it but I don't I can revisit everything I construct. Do you find it beneficial to write them all down? Do you revisit them?

Hi Tal_175,

To answer your question; yes writing them down helps me to internalize them as well as not needing to learn the same thing twice!

Also, I spend some time writing a good line so that alone makes it worth remembering.

I do occasionally revisit what I wrote and can then judge how much I have actually assimilated into my playing.

I started this book 30 years ago and in the past 2 years have probably written 100 pages. (about 230 pages total)

Everyone learns differently and I personally spent way too much time inefficiently practicing; this is what works for me.

[BreckerFan]

Bat signal to Brecker. I don’t remember it all, but if I remember he keeps going down this road … basically anything with a C and F he’ll play over Dm7.

Yeah like others said he explains two different polytonal concepts in the video.

One is scalar. Any scale is allowed that contains the 3rd and 7th of the chord. You can go through and start mapping out different possibilities. I like melodic minor from the 3rd of a maj7 chord. Using this kind of approach gives that outside but still kind of inside sound that he's so good at.

The other one is triad based. Basically take a chromatic note and expand it with triads that contain that note.

Lots of guys do stuff like this. Herbie does it a lot. I'm sure Coltrane too.

Really the trick is just being able to briefly go in and out smoothly. Rogers does a lot of descending lines that start inside, go out, and then resolve, all without changing direction.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah like others said he explains two different polytonal concepts in the video.

One is scalar. Any scale is allowed that contains the 3rd and 7th of the chord. You can go through and start mapping out different possibilities. I like melodic minor from the 3rd of a maj7 chord. Using this kind of approach gives that outside but still kind of inside sound that he's so good at.

The other one is triad based. Basically take a chromatic note and expand it with triads that contain that note.

Lots of guys do stuff like this. Herbie does it a lot. I'm sure Coltrane too.

Really the trick is just being able to briefly go in and out smoothly. Rogers does a lot of descending lines that start inside, go out, and then resolve, all without changing direction.

Yeah I found my notes from it … I have some notes about using chromatic approach notes to triads and making them the last note of some other triad. So like … B D# F# G B D for G major or something

[Mick-7]

I don't understand why you write such nonsense...

We can always count on ragman to say something provocative on a subject, no matter what it is, can't we?

[kris]

Does anyone like jazz here?

[grahambop]

Yeah. Apropos of the thread title, I’d be interested in how you incorporate this stuff.

I have a beboppy flavor that I can’t and don’t really want to shake but also love those modern sounds from dudes like Adam.

How are you making it happen

That’s a good question! Really I think I just practise one or two things (that’s all I seem to be able to assimilate), and at first (frustratingly) it seems to make no difference. But after about 6 months I find little traces of it creeping into my playing. So really it just takes a long time I think.

For example I learned one or two of the Bergonzi pentatonic patterns some time ago, but now they seem to be surfacing a bit more.

Same thing with the Linear Expressions book some years back, I only learned a couple of the lines but eventually they did show up in my playing.

But I think this small number of initial ideas get varied and developed a bit over time as I gradually incorporate them. So just a few ‘seed’ ideas can generate a fair bit of mileage (hopefully!).

[Mick-7]

Re: connecting chords diatonically, these 8th note phrases that forum member jlp shared in my Dave Creamer thread
{ Here: Dave Creamer Exercises } illustrate the concept well: