Approaches to Improvisation

[Question]

Here is my take on Bill Evans' Waltz "Very Early". I started learning this tune a few days ago and thought it might be helpful to play it with 8th's.
I have added the chart and count-in if someone wants to play the changes along with my improv to better hear what is going on.

One useful aspect of this 8th's exercise that I have not seen discussed (or I overlooked it) is that if your goal is to smoothly connect chords, and get the sound of the harmony in your lines, you will often need one of several devices.
A chromatic note, an enclosure, doubled note etc, in order to land on your desired target.
I have found that being able to do that on the fly is extremely useful for me.

Full disclosure; I am a bass player and when playing walking bass this sort of technique is basically what you are constantly doing. So thinking ahead and calculating your resolutions is an essential skill and something that I have done a lot on bass.

Very Early Chart.pdf

[kris]

I don't rate Adam Rogers. All his stuff seems a bit flat to me. I'm not excited by it for some reason.

Adam Rogers is a brilliant guitarist.

[BreckerFan]

Yeah not rating Rogers is a big mistake

[pamosmusic]

Yeah not rating Rogers is a big mistake

Who in their right mind would let that man go first at the jam session.

[BreckerFan]

Who in their right mind would let that man go first at the jam session.

Lol if you look closely you can probably see the beads of sweat forming on the other guitarist's face.

[grahambop]

Yes I think Adam Rogers is the one of the few guitarists that could take a solo after Michael Brecker and not sound inferior (there are some incredible AR solos on those Brecker quartet bootlegs that are floating around).

[Mick-7]

We can always count on ragman to say something provocative on a subject, no matter what it is, can't we?

A few people have commented in this thread that they are finding this exercise to be too difficult for them. To me this suggests that:
(a) you've picked a tune with with chord changes that are too complex, you'll need to start with one that has simpler chord changes, and/or (b) you should do the exercise at a slower tempo. Even so, your results are likely to to be mediocre initially, improvement usually occurs in very small increments and may not be evident at all for a while.

One useful aspect of this 8th's exercise that I have not seen discussed (or I overlooked it) is that if your goal is to smoothly connect chords, and get the sound of the harmony in your lines, you will often need one of several devices. A chromatic note, an enclosure, doubled note etc, in order to land on your desired target. I have found that being able to do that on the fly extremely useful for me.]

I would agree that such devices are useful or even critical for forming melodic lines, but they may be a bit too advanced for some (except for note doubling). I'd start with connecting the chords diatonically, you're always no more than a half or whole step away from the next chord tone/scale.

[Tal_175]

We can always count on ragman to say something provocative on a subject, no matter what it is, can't we?

A few people have commented in this thread that they are finding this exercise to be too difficult for them. To me this suggests that:
(a) you've picked a tune with with chord changes that are too complex, you'll need to start with one that has simpler chord changes, and/or (b) you should do the exercise at a slower tempo. Even so, your results are likely to to be mediocre initially, improvement usually occurs in very small increments and may not be evident at all for a while.

I thought you called it a torture earlier in the thread, no? What makes the exercise difficult is outlining the changes in continuous 8th notes. If one just plays their habitual moves without strict outline of the changes, it becomes a trivial exercise even at fast tempos.

[Mick-7]

I thought you called it a torture earlier in the thread, no?

As I recall, I was just kidding grahambop when I said that.

What makes the exercise difficult is outlining the changes in continuous 8th notes. If one just plays their habitual moves without strict outline of the changes, it becomes a trivial exercise even at fast tempos.

I'm thinking it would be more difficult to do the exercise without outlining the chord changes to some degree because to even make the changes you have to find diatonic notes that match the chords.

Continuous 8th notes exercise 2.0: Avoid playing chord tones. That would be pretty hard.

[BreckerFan]

I mean I guess that would be hard but I think it would also sound pretty bad.

Good jazz lines reflect the underlying harmony, even if abstractly. That's just how it works.

[pamosmusic]

I'm thinking it would be more difficult to do the exercise without outlining the chord changes to some degree because to even make the changes you have to find diatonic notes that match the chords.

Continuous 8th notes exercise 2.0: Avoid playing chord tones. That would be pretty hard.

Eh. I’ll post today. I’ve been doing this sort of. Really just connecting scales wherever they are. So there are chord tones, but it’s connecting scales without much regard for the chord.

[Tal_175]

As I recall, I was just kidding grahambop when I said that.

You were saying that you were having difficulty playing 8th notes without having to stop from time to time to figure out how to continue. But Graham insisted that he would use continuous 8th notes. That's when your "torment" joke came.

I'm thinking it would be more difficult to do the exercise without outlining the chord changes to some degree because to even make the changes you have to find diatonic notes that match the chords.

Continuous 8th notes exercise 2.0: Avoid playing chord tones. That would be pretty hard.

Both outlining the changes and "avoiding chord tones" impose a constraint and require high skill (albeit one more useful than the other). What I was referring to as trivial was the more constraint-free approach of moving fingers in hit and miss manner.

[BreckerFan]

Yeah I see the point of that as an exercise. Helps be able to find the desired scale anywhere on the neck on the fly.

I'm just not sure why we would want to *avoid* chord tones. Playing lines composed purely of 2, 4, 6 would be...unique.

[Mick-7]

Eh. I’ll post today. I’ve been doing this sort of. Really just connecting scales wherever they are. So there are chord tones, but it’s connecting scales without much regard for the chord.

Good, we can count on your lines to float then?

[Mick-7]

You were saying that you were having difficulty playing 8th notes without having to stop from time to time to figure out how to continue.

No, I never said that. I said I was unhappy with how my improvisation sounded when I "eliminated all rhythmic variety", as the exercise calls for. In fact, I think that will always be true but I'm willing to try it.

[pamosmusic]

Good, we can count on your lines to float then?

Doubt it

[BreckerFan]

Starting my practice today with the exercise on Miss Jones.

I'm using a lot of chromaticism/substitutions which both outline the changes and, I think, are melodic.

Christian avert your eyes at my wrist bend lol

[pamosmusic]

Starting my practice today with the exercise on Miss Jones.

I'm using a lot of chromaticism/substitutions which both outline the changes and, I think, are melodic.

Christian avert your eyes at my wrist bend lol

My god, man. Slur!

[BreckerFan]

Haha nah. But I do slide sometimes.

[pamosmusic]

Okay so here’s that …

If I Were a Bell, key of Eb. Continuous eighth notes at 120 bpm. I’m also just doing some scale stuff, so this is all fifth position, ascending until I run out of space, then descending until I run out of space.

Bless you, Guy.

[ragman1]

Starting my practice today with the exercise on Miss Jones.

I'm using a lot of chromaticism/substitutions which both outline the changes and, I think, are melodic.

That looks efficient. Would prefer to get the full effect over the changes to be honest. Maybe later :-)

[ragman1]

Yes I think Adam Rogers is the one of the few guitarists that could take a solo after Michael Brecker and not sound inferior (there are some incredible AR solos on those Brecker quartet bootlegs that are floating around).

I've noticed that a lot of these vids show a much younger Adam Rogers. Or is it my imagination?

[GuyBoden]

I've noticed that a lot of these vids show a much younger Adam Rogers. Or is it my imagination?

[BreckerFan]

I've noticed that a lot of these vids show a much younger Adam Rogers. Or is it my imagination?

Time does move along for us all.

I've seen him live recently and...he's still got it.

[pamosmusic]

Your metronome is set at 60 bpm?

yeah