Approaches to Improvisation

[CliffR]

It's an infectious tune

[lawson-stone]

I thought I'd go ahead and post the 2nd "exercise" 8th note lines from the Joe Pass Guitar Style. I honestly don't know how anyone could say this is not "musical." His lines are wonderful. They're a delight to play, a delight to hear. The ideas and the interaction with the changes is simply stellar. That all even survives the guy in this clip doing the playing.

[Mick-7]

Yeah. Mick can test this by writing and learning something at the tempo he's aiming for. If he can execute it at that tempo then it's not a technique issue.

It's definitely not a physical technique issue, I can play fast but beyond a certain tempo, I don't like the lines that I produce.

[James W]

I think that tune would be one of the more challenging for doing this exercise. Did you feel like it anchored you better with the flow of the changes? I always struggle with linking ideas when playing Stella. You seemed to be finding a lot of connecting points between the various sections. Am I seeing that right? I admire that effort, and also with alternating rest strokes, I will be interested to see how that goes for you. I play finger style when I'm doing chord-melody but I can't finger-pick the long passages like Joe Pass did, and I think while he used the classical position (he first learned from the Carcassi method book) he generally seems to have played free strokes and often went to the thumb on the bass strings. I wish I could play the lines with the fingers the way he and some others, even some on here, can do.

Thanks, Lawson! I am really quite familiar with this tune and contrary to what people might imagine about an improvisational exercise such as this, I don't feel tethered - while of course I try to keep the eighth notes going, but it's nice not having the metronome or backing track going on. As Peter said, it's difficult to divide Stella into chunks because each harmonic movement flows into the next one. I guess that's part of its appeal for me and I have played it a lot.
I like playing fingerstyle - but every day I am reminded it feels like I can't take it for granted and everything needs to be practised slowly, at least for a while at the beginning of the practice session. You seem enviably comfortable with a plectrum.

[James W]

It's definitely not a physical technique issue, I can play fast but beyond a certain tempo, I don't like the lines that I produce.

Then do as I suggest - write a solo at the desired tempo and learn to play it.

This I recall was Herbie Hancock's suggestion in his autobiography for getting into playing at high tempos.

[Mick-7]

I wish the thread had been called "Approaches to Improvisational Exercises"

Feel free to introduce any other improvisational "approach" into this conversation, improvising on the melody, thematic/motif development, etc.

[pamosmusic]

It's definitely not a physical technique issue, I can play fast but beyond a certain tempo, I don't like the lines that I produce.

Im curious how you know the difference?

My experience is not that I reach a tempo or some other technical limitation and then seize up like a bike with a stick in the spokes.

Usually I just avoid the limitation unconsciously.

So what is a good line to you?

One with nice interval skips, a little unpredictable, some bebop vocabulary?

If that’s the case and that stuff is absent, then it very well might be a technical issue.

Ear and technique are not so easily separated. I find that I hear things I can play.

[James W]

new fiddle?

No, I've owned this guitar for 11 years in fact. I've taken it with me to my aunt's because I don't need an amp for it - that, and it's good that I start using it again because it's a lovely guitar but just requires more effort to play than my Fender Mustang so usually at home I play the latter. Anyway, I intend to play it more at home now too.

[CliffR]

Here's a variation on the continuous notes exercise that I got off Jens Larsen to help with thinking ahead rather than just stumbling into the next nearest chord tone on the change. The idea is to play continuous 8th notes, but always targeting the 3rd of the up-coming chord. This is my second day at it, so still plenty of work to be done, but I already feel like it's going to produce some results.

[BreckerFan]

I've found that being able to play a scale or arpeggio fast is not very correlated at all with being able to play musical sounding lines fast.

I think we can trick ourselves into thinking we have more usable techniques than we do. You would think if you have the raw technique to play a scale at 200 bpm, then you should be able to play a solo on a tune at 200 bpm. But you also need to be able to control the direction of phrases, land them where you want them, navigate changes, etc etc.

That's why composed etudes are such a big part of my practice. Also playing transcribed up tempo solos. If you want a vocabulary of interesting sounding lines at moderate to fast tempos, you have to practice interesting sounding lines at those tempos. It's not just gonna magically come together on the fly.

[Mick-7]

Then do as I suggest - write a solo at the desired tempo and learn to play it. I recall was Herbie Hancock's suggestion in his autobiography for getting into playing at high tempos.

That won't do it, composing for me is too much of a left brain analytical process, whereas improvisation is a right brain "channeling" process.

There's a chapter in Howard Roberts Praxis System Vol. 1 (page 22) entitled "The Vocal Connection," which I believe describes the approach I need to take. See: Howard Roberts Books

[pamosmusic]

That won't do it

What's that definition of insanity again?

[Mick-7]

Im curious how you know the difference?

My experience is not that I reach a tempo or some other technical limitation and then seize up like a bike with a stick in the spokes.

Usually I just avoid the limitation unconsciously.

So what is a good line to you?

One with nice interval skips, a little unpredictable, some bebop vocabulary?

If that’s the case and that stuff is absent, then it very well might be a technical issue.

Ear and technique are not so easily separated. I find that I hear things I can play.

I can play such lines at a high speed but I can't improvise them at that speed, so it's clearly not a technical issue.

[GuyBoden]

A buddy just sent me some short videos from a gig on Saturday … and whadyaknow it’s Stella and St Thomas

Guy will be along to fix the links shortly.

https://youtube.com/shorts/HHjSoKkG_...aGc41F_zPyjjlw

and

https://youtube.com/shorts/Hkt1svq0Q...QTlTTdU-uQISIU

[pamosmusic]

how are you doing this

[pamosmusic]

I can play such lines at a high speed but I can't improvise them at that speed, so it's clearly not a technical issue.

Maybe.

How do you generally work on lines at high speed? And I guess, what constitutes high speed?

This might be irrelevant, but I also don't really expect my improvising chops to be 100% of my set piece chops. If I can play a transcription in eighth note lines at 250 bpm, I expect to be play lines that are like ... 80% as cool at 80% of the tempo. Or something. Obviously this is all very scientific.

[Mick-7]

Maybe.

How do you generally work on lines at high speed? And I guess, what constitutes high speed?

Well, I'd say 180 bpm and up, but the continuous 8th notes exercise has revealed that my melodic event horizon is much lower than that, about 150-160 bpm.

Frankly, I've avoided improvising on tunes at high tempos, so I'm finally confronting that aversion.

[rpjazzguitar]

I can play such lines at a high speed but I can't improvise them at that speed, so it's clearly not a technical issue.

I have a similar limitation. If something is written out I can generally play it, sometimes after some thought about fingering. That includes some fast stuff. On a sunny day I can nail Donna Lee at 220.

But, at high speed, if I try to play a lot of notes, my brain gets disconnected and my fingers end up moving without sufficient intentionality. So, it will end up being whatever scales lay well under my fingers, some well practiced arps and the handful of licks I use. I end up unhappy with the result.

My response is to do things like tap my foot once per bar, try to feel the tune slowly, and then improvise over that modified-version-in-my-head. It works, but I can hear, in the back of my mind, the burning version I'm not playing, so it's a little frustrating.

If it was easy, I'd be doing it already. It just feels like something I'm not going to worry about. But I'm old with lots of other things to work on. If I was young, I'd be taking lessons to address it. Being able to play good lines at a high speed is a very desirable skill in jazz. Part of the picture.

All that said, audiences seem to accept the slower playing on fast tunes pretty well if it's melodic.

[pamosmusic]

Well, I'd say 180 bpm and up, but the continuous 8th notes exercise has revealed that my melodic event horizon is much lower than that, about 150-160 bpm.

Frankly, I've avoided improvising on tunes at high tempos, so I'm finally confronting that aversion.

Yeah I think maybe technique is something to consider. 180 isn't super fast.

Also it's fine and cool for your lines at, say, 240 bpm, to be qualitatively different than your lines at 180 bpm or something. That St. Thomas was pushing 280 bpm -- I got a couple bars of eighth notes off there, but it's way more quarter notes, quarter note triplets, rhythmic stuff, repetition. Maybe in ten years I'll be cooking at that tempo the way I do 80 clicks slower or something. But that's something that would be nice, rather than necessary.

[Mick-7]

Yeah I think maybe technique is something to consider. 180 isn't super fast.

Also it's fine and cool for your lines at, say, 240 bpm, to be qualitatively different than your lines at 180 bpm or something. That St. Thomas was pushing 280 bpm -- I got a couple bars of eighth notes off there, but it's way more quarter notes, quarter note triplets, rhythmic stuff, repetition. Maybe in ten years I'll be cooking at that tempo the way I do 80 clicks slower or something. But that's something that would be nice, rather than necessary.

At high speeds, say 200 bpm and up, one is relying mostly on muscle memory/memorized lines, and my approach is primarily ear based so perhaps I'm trying to accomplish something that is next to impossible? (i.e., having my ears guide me at such speeds).

[lawson-stone]

At high speeds, say 200 bpm and up, one is relying mostly on muscle memory/memorized lines, and my approach is primarily ear based so perhaps I'm trying to accomplish something that is next to impossible? (i.e., having my ears guide me at such speeds).

I don't think the first statement here is true. I have talked with players who can play at those tempos and they of course use material they already knew but they did not just fall back on muscle-memory. They internalized melodic ideas at that tempo and had the technical chops to deliver them. I remember Joe Pass asked me to think about the guitar as merely a typewriter. The ideas are in my head, not in the typewriter. He said the speed of typing will always be slower than the speed of thought, but you can learn to type faster. There is a different kind of zone these really fast players get into, and they learn to go there by literally crushing hours of practice. Pat Metheny is probably the most vocal on this point. Hours upon hours of drilling practice, learning repertoire, learning the language, learning the fretboard, until the whole thing becomes organic. I do know during the times in my life when I've devoted a lot of energy and time to the fundamentals, and to pushing myself, I have improved dramatically in my playing.

[Mick-7]

I thought your periodic use of a phrase or fragment from the melody was a solid way to keep the lines and the listener anchored. Your tone is also very nice, to my ear, and I also was impressed that you didn't clam a note or buzz... one of my favorite moves, so much so that I thought about making missed notes and buzzes my trademark style.

You are too kind, there were a few buzzy notes at the start.

Re: my tone, I was very pleasantly surprised how good this cheap little Good-Will amp sounds (looks good too). I bought if for my acoustic guitar, but my Tele sounds better through it than through my Polytone! (I was playing a Tele in my Stella clip).

Dean Markley AG-15 Ultrasound Acoustic Guitar Amplifier | ShopGoodwill.com

[pamosmusic]

At high speeds, say 200 bpm and up, one is relying mostly on muscle memory/memorized lines, and my approach is primarily ear based so perhaps I'm trying to accomplish something that is next to impossible? (i.e., having my ears guide me at such speeds).

No, I think you’re not approaching high speeds with a practical goal in mind. Everyone relies on muscle memory to an extent, no matter what tempo. More so at up tempos for sure. But you’re not going to play the same lines at an up tempo as at a more moderate tempo.

playing up tempos can be qualitatively different. You have to learn to hear at that tempo, and it takes work, and some realization that what you hear up there won’t be what you hear at down tempos.

rps suggestion to feel the time in larger chunks, for example, is a good one.

I used to struggle at 230-240 but I’ve spent a lot of time on it and thought about it differently and I’ve started feeling more comfortable up around 270-280. It’s taken maybe two solid years, but it’s slow and steady.

On the point about technical limitation, I don’t think 200 is too terribly fast either. I think I’m pretty comfortable there? Muscle memory? Sure, but I feel like I can be pretty
creative at that tempo.

[Mick-7]

I don't think the first statement here is true. I have talked with players who can play at those tempos and they of course use material they already knew but they did not just fall back on muscle-memory. They internalized melodic ideas at that tempo and had the technical chops to deliver them. I remember Joe Pass asked me to think about the guitar as merely a typewriter. The ideas are in my head, not in the typewriter. He said the speed of typing will always be slower than the speed of thought, but you can learn to type faster. There is a different kind of zone these really fast players get into, and they learn to go there by literally crushing hours of practice. Pat Metheny is probably the most vocal on this point. Hours upon hours of drilling practice, learning repertoire, learning the language, learning the fretboard, until the whole thing becomes organic. I do know during the times in my life when I've devoted a lot of energy and time to the fundamentals, and to pushing myself, I have improved dramatically in my playing.

Yeah, that's probably the answer, I had such commitment when I was in college but that was a long time ago. Consistency of practice (every day) is even more important than long hours of it. I was lax on that too.

[Mick-7]

On the point about technical limitation, I don’t think 200 is too terribly fast either. I think I’m pretty comfortable there? Muscle memory? Sure, but I feel like I can be pretty creative at that tempo.

Remember though that we were talking about continuous 8th notes at high speeds, playing quarter note phrases at 280 or whatever is a cinch compared to that.