Approaches to Improvisation

[CliffR]

You can always break it up into chunks, e.g. just try playing a line over 4 bars of the tune. Actually I tend to do that a lot with a new or tricky tune. Still valuable practice.

That's very much what I did with All The Chords There Are.

[Strat-itis]

All improvised solos contain 8ths. They are indeed the basic unit, if you like. But I defy anyone to produce a solo where they're played continuously and not phrased.

Exactly the same goes for bluegrass, incidentally :-)

ragman, how much can you pontificate! You build technique so you can then go be musical with it. Technique exercises aren't supposed to be the finished product! You can't exercise your full musicality (and often not any) if you don't have technique built up.

[pamosmusic]

You can always break it up into chunks, e.g. just try playing a line over 4 bars of the tune. Actually I tend to do that a lot with a new or tricky tune. Still valuable practice.

Yeah I do quite a lot of that. It’s good to find a resting place rather than a strict four bars if you can.

Like for If I Were a Bell, I might sit for a while with that I - IV #ivo - I - viio III7 - vi

So you need that fifth bar to make a phrase that works.

Whereas the first four bars — II7 - V7 - I - % — makes sense in a four.

Thats a big part of what makes tunes like Stella pretty tough. The changes are tricky, but when you’re looking for phrases to play, they’re either super short — Dm7 - Bbm7 Eb7 - F — or they’re quite long, like the opening 9 bars.

[grahambop]

Another completely different approach (and possibly a bit easier to do) is to think up a short motif and try and take it through all the changes of the tune (i.e. tweaking it a bit to fit the changes as it goes along, maybe trying to vary it a bit rhythmically and so on).

As advocated by Jim Hall, John Abercrombie, Jerry Bergonzi and no doubt many others too. Those guys can almost build a whole solo out of this method. Sonny Rollins used to do it a lot.

If you can develop some good long lines, and intersperse them with these types of motivic ideas, you’ve got all the materials to create a pretty good solo I think.

[CliffR]

Another completely different approach (and possibly a bit easier to do) is to think up a short motif and try and take it through all the changes of the tune (i.e. tweaking it a bit to fit the changes as it goes along, maybe trying to vary it a bit rhythmically and so on).

As advocated by Jim Hall, John Abercrombie, Jerry Bergonzi and no doubt many others too. Those guys can almost build a whole solo out of this method. Sonny Rollins used to do it a lot.

If you can develop some good long lines, and intersperse them with these types of motivic ideas, you’ve got all the materials to create a pretty good solo I think.

Sonny Rollins' solo on St Thomas when starts with the short motifs and switches to that beautiful long flowing line is just awesome.

[pamosmusic]

Another completely different approach (and possibly a bit easier to do) is to think up a short motif and try and take it through all the changes of the tune (i.e. tweaking it a bit to fit the changes as it goes along, maybe trying to vary it a bit rhythmically and so on).

As advocated by Jim Hall, John Abercrombie, Jerry Bergonzi and no doubt many others too. Those guys can almost build a whole solo out of this method. Sonny Rollins used to do it a lot.

If you can develop some good long lines, and intersperse them with these types of motivic ideas, you’ve got all the materials to create a pretty good solo I think.

Yeah that’s sort of what I was going for with that guide tones and melody exercise I like.

It feels like a lot of improvising sort of shifts between two modes — melodic development and the BOP — and sometimes it’s blurred a lot, but other times you can really feel them flip the switch. Cliff mentioned Sonny’s solo on St Thomas and that’s a really good one.

[grahambop]

Sonny Rollins' solo on St Thomas when starts with the short motifs and switches to that beautiful long flowing line is just awesome.

oh yeah, Sonny’s stuff is great.

Sadly, the only time I saw him he was having one of his ‘uninspired’ nights and just kept nagging away for 20 minutes on the same banal phrases (at least that’s what it sounded like). I guess we all have off nights, but his admirable refusal to fall back on any familiar ideas or licks was a bit of a pain on that occasion!

[ragman1]

Thats a big part of what makes tunes like Stella pretty tough. The changes are tricky, but when you’re looking for phrases to play, they’re either super short — Dm7 - Bbm7 Eb7 - F — or they’re quite long, like the opening 9 bars.

I was just fooling with it this morning. Semi-seriously, it has to be said :-)

[ragman1]

ragman, how much can you pontificate! You build technique so you can then go be musical with it. Technique exercises aren't supposed to be the finished product! You can't exercise your full musicality (and often not any) if you don't have technique built up.

Quite right, obviously. It's not possible to produce music without technique. First the technique then the creativity. And you get good at technique by practice and repetition. And some natural ability, of course.

[pamosmusic]

I was just fooling with it this morning. Semi-seriously, it has to be said :-)

Is there something you’d like me to say?

[ragman1]

Is there something you’d like me to say?

Yes, I'd like you to say 'The sixth sick sheikh's sixth sheep's sick' several times in a row very quickly. And, don't forget, practice makes perfect :-)

[charlieparker]

Since the basic unit of most jazz solos since about 1945 has been 8th-note lines (and before that, if you consider players like Coleman Hawkins), it’s probably a bit late to be warning of their perils.

Didn’t you say once you liked bluegrass? I guess they use a few 8th notes and fast tempos?

Anyway here’s the Hawk firing off loads of 8th-notes like a cerebral machine in 1939. (Actually I think they are 16th notes, so twice as bad!)

Bach, too. It isn't always continuous 8ths, but he has fairly long streams of eighth notes in many pf his pieces.

[lawson-stone]

ragman, how much can you pontificate! You build technique so you can then go be musical with it. Technique exercises aren't supposed to be the finished product! You can't exercise your full musicality (and often not any) if you don't have technique built up.

Like a famous teacher once said: "Wax on, Wax off; sand the floor..."

[James W]

I did this; may as well share it.

[lawson-stone]

I did this; may as well share it.

I think that tune would be one of the more challenging for doing this exercise. Did you feel like it anchored you better with the flow of the changes? I always struggle with linking ideas when playing Stella. You seemed to be finding a lot of connecting points between the various sections. Am I seeing that right? I admire that effort, and also with alternating rest strokes, I will be interested to see how that goes for you. I play finger style when I'm doing chord-melody but I can't finger-pick the long passages like Joe Pass did, and I think while he used the classical position (he first learned from the Carcassi method book) he generally seems to have played free strokes and often went to the thumb on the bass strings. I wish I could play the lines with the fingers the way he and some others, even some on here, can do.

[pamosmusic]

I did this; may as well share it.

new fiddle?

[lawson-stone]

It appears that eliminating all rhythmic variety just does work for me, when I try to do so, my playing gets worse rather than better, Stella by Starlight becomes Stella by Torchlight. But maybe I'll try this slower, 150bpm is kind of quick for continuous 8th notes.

Stella by Starlight solo @150bpm - Box.com

Stella by Torchlight:

Attachment 123436

I thought your periodic use of a phrase or fragment from the melody was a solid way to keep the lines and the listener anchored. Your tone is also very nice, to my ear, and I also was impressed that you didn't clam a note or buzz... one of my favorite moves, so much so that I thought about making missed notes and buzzes my trademark style. I also could follow the changes in a lot of this. I agree too with Graham that you seemed more sure of yourself in the second part.
I thought it was a nice effort. I am really all thumbs on Stella, and I admire anyone who tackles it.

[Christian Miller]

Bach, too. It isn't always continuous 8ths, but he has fairly long streams of eighth notes in many pf his pieces.

And that's extremely unmusical as everyone agrees. /s

[lawson-stone]

The cerebral mindset that likes continuous 8ths and that sort of thing is NOT the same mindset that hears and plays musically evocative phrases.

A problem with a lot of jazz is precisely that, that it thinks good musical phrases are somehow old-fashioned and prefers lines that seem to be written by a computer.

Before anyone says 'do both' I'm not sure both are possible, not at the same time anyway. One knocks out the other.

When learning jazz, retain your sense of beauty. Don't let them turn you into a line machine with little or no soul.

A totally false dichotomy. It' s like saying the boxer who spends his time running, lifting weights, doing the speed bag, working the heavy bag, and sparring with his coach is a very different thing from a boxer who gets in the ring and fights an opponent. Nope. Unless you have a scary-divine gift, you have to do the first to be able to do the second. I love to hear and play continuous 8th notes. I also love to close my eyes and play more freely. Those who hear me actually seem to prefer the 8th notes...

[pamosmusic]

A buddy just sent me some short videos from a gig on Saturday … and whadyaknow it’s Stella and St Thomas

Guy will be along to fix the links shortly.

https://youtube.com/shorts/HHjSoKkG_...aGc41F_zPyjjlw

and

https://youtube.com/shorts/Hkt1svq0Q...QTlTTdU-uQISIU

[CliffR]

A buddy just sent me some short videos from a gig on Saturday … and whadyaknow it’s Stella and St Thomas

Guy will be along to fix the links shortly.

https://youtube.com/shorts/HHjSoKkG_...aGc41F_zPyjjlw

and

https://youtube.com/shorts/Hkt1svq0Q...QTlTTdU-uQISIU

Sounded great! Longer clips would be nice - felt like St Thomas was about to kick in just when it ended. Also, have you considered using more continuous 8th notes in your lines?

[pamosmusic]

Sounded great! Longer clips would be nice - felt like St Thomas was about to kick in just when it ended. Also, have you considered using more continuous 8th notes in your lines?

At that St Thomas tempo I would’ve passed out.

[CliffR]

At that St Thomas tempo I would’ve passed out.

Sorry - was trying to be funny.

[grahambop]

A buddy just sent me some short videos from a gig on Saturday … and whadyaknow it’s Stella and St Thomas

very nice, wanted more!

[pamosmusic]

Sorry - was trying to be funny.

Me too!

Except that I actually might’ve passed out.

We always let the drummer start that one and I swear it gets ten clicks faster every time.