Approaches to Improvisation

[kris]

Overcome the technical problems first, and only then think about creating music.
It just makes sense.

[Mick-7]

It’s not that it doesn’t work for you. It’s that you’re not good at it yet. Why would you abandon something like this on the first try? Stick with it for a few weeks.

Actually, it appears I need to take my own advice (below). I can't execute the lines I'm hearing (in my head) at that tempo. But it's not a guitar technique issue, it's an ear training liability, can't hear and translate the notes effectively beyond a certain tempo. Thank you.

Well, it's a matter of tempo, right? At what tempo do the mistakes start breeding? (or my yardstick, which is, at what tempo do my lines resemble gibberish). That tempo is too challenging for you, find a slower one and work on increasing it.

[James W]

The cerebral mindset that likes continuous 8ths and that sort of thing is NOT the same mindset that hears and plays musically evocative phrases.

False. Adam Rogers is a mofo, for example, while what you play is twee and risible.

[kris]

Playing with his thumb on an acoustic guitar is a serious handicap for Ragman.
It makes no sense.

[grahambop]

It appears that eliminating all rhythmic variety just does work for me, when I try to do so, my playing gets worse rather than better, Stella by Starlight becomes Stella by Torchlight. But maybe I'll try this slower, 150bpm is kind of quick for continuous 8th notes.

Stella by Starlight solo @150bpm - Box.com

Stella by Torchlight:

Attachment 123436

Sounds good to me, first chorus was a bit tentative but the second one was flowing quite nicely.

[grahambop]

The cerebral mindset that likes continuous 8ths and that sort of thing is NOT the same mindset that hears and plays musically evocative phrases.

A problem with a lot of jazz is precisely that, that it thinks good musical phrases are somehow old-fashioned and prefers lines that seem to be written by a computer.

Before anyone says 'do both' I'm not sure both are possible, not at the same time anyway. One knocks out the other.

When learning jazz, retain your sense of beauty. Don't let them turn you into a line machine with little or no soul.

Since the basic unit of most jazz solos since about 1945 has been 8th-note lines (and before that, if you consider players like Coleman Hawkins), it’s probably a bit late to be warning of their perils.

Didn’t you say once you liked bluegrass? I guess they use a few 8th notes and fast tempos?

Anyway here’s the Hawk firing off loads of 8th-notes like a cerebral machine in 1939. (Actually I think they are 16th notes, so twice as bad!)

[pauln]

APPROACHES TO IMPROVISATION

Within the context of performance

There's a hierarchy of considerations. The top level comprises three existential aspects - the nature of the venue, the expectations of the audience, and the capabilities of those with whom I'm playing.

Some venues are jazz clubs, some host bands of various styles, and some are the "first time playing there" adventures. These loosely relate to the expectations of the audience and guide judgement in approach. The most freedom is in the jazz clubs. For places that have variety of styles I think more of being an "ambassador" of jazz and emphasize being polite, and somewhat inhibit accordingly. For a first time venue/audience I test experimentally to gauge what they like. I can be most flexible with my trio, less so when playing with the horn band (more R&B, blues, only light popular jazz).

Below the guidance of the top level, the usual musical judgement we all discuss and know from experience filters down - the balance among truth, beauty, and goodness... what in jazz context I call authenticity, allure, and appropriateness.

Within the context of practice

My philosophy of preparing for performance is very simple. Knowing that the decades of practice determine how one plays, I've continued to focus on playing only what sounds good, following Wes' practice method of not playing anything that could not be in the performance of a tune... basically the acquisition, development, cultivation, and maintenance of the habit of only sounding good whenever touching the instrument.

[pamosmusic]

Actually, it appears I need to take my own advice (below). I can't execute the lines I'm hearing (in my head) at that tempo. But it's not a guitar technique issue, it's an ear training liability, can't hear and translate the notes effectively beyond a certain tempo. Thank you.

I would be inclined to pretty strongly disagree with this one. I would absolutely think guitar technique issue first.

[pamosmusic]

Playing with his thumb on an acoustic guitar is a serious handicap for Ragman.
It makes no sense.

So is a reflexive objection to practice

[GuyBoden]

The cerebral mindset that likes continuous 8ths and that sort of thing is NOT the same mindset that hears and plays musically evocative phrases.

A problem with a lot of jazz is precisely that, that it thinks good musical phrases are somehow old-fashioned and prefers lines that seem to be written by a computer.

Before anyone says 'do both' I'm not sure both are possible, not at the same time anyway. One knocks out the other.

When learning jazz, retain your sense of beauty. Don't let them turn you into a line machine with little or no soul.

Yes, I prefer phrases too, but the continuous 8th notes are only practice exercises.

The initial results of the continuous 8th note practice exercises will be embarrassing, so I don't post them.

"Howard Roberts Super Chops" book uses ONLY continuous 8th notes. It's a good book and JimmyBlueNote ran a good "Howard Roberts Super Chops" study group.

"Howard Roberts Super Chops" study group is in the link below:
Howard Roberts Super Chops: study group for a tune based practice routine

But yes, I prefer to hear phrasing too, not continuous 8th notes.

[Christian Miller]

Can I use ‘twee and risible’ as a pull quote for the promo for Rage Against the Tagine’s first EP Resistance is Useless?


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[James W]

I would be inclined to pretty strongly disagree with this one. I would absolutely think guitar technique issue first.

Yeah. Mick can test this by writing and learning something at the tempo he's aiming for. If he can execute it at that tempo then it's not a technique issue.

[James W]

Yes, I prefer phrases too, but the continuous 8th notes are only practice exercises.

The initial results of the continuous 8th note practice exercises will be embarrassing, so I don't post them.

"Howard Roberts Super Chops" book uses ONLY continuous 8th notes. It's a good book and JimmyBlueNote ran a good "Howard Roberts Super Chops" study group.

"Howard Roberts Super Chops" study group is in the link below:
Howard Roberts Super Chops: study group for a tune based practice routine

But yes, I prefer to hear phrasing too, not continuous 8th notes.

Y'see I have respect for Guy who correctly frames the issue as one of personal preference, rather than Ragman who elevates his own personal preference into pseudo-objective general principle in a grandiose act of projection and has the nerve to lecture other people about retaining a sense of beauty, as though the idea of music consisting of a continuous rhythmically unchanging line of notes hasn't been around for hundreds of years and can't be staggeringly beautiful. Just listen to some Baroque music, Ragman.

[ragman1]

All improvised solos contain 8ths. They are indeed the basic unit, if you like. But I defy anyone to produce a solo where they're played continuously and not phrased.

Exactly the same goes for bluegrass, incidentally :-)

[grahambop]

All improvised solos contain 8ths. They are indeed the basic unit, if you like. But I defy anyone to produce a solo where they're played continuously and not phrased.

Exactly the same goes for bluegrass, incidentally :-)

As usual you are missing the point that has been repeatedly made - it’s just an exercise to develop facility with longer lines. There is no reason why the lines produced by the exercise can’t be quite musical too, that’s also part of the aim as far as I’m concerned.

Doesn’t mean I’d try and play a whole solo in continuous 8ths, in fact I’m sure I couldn’t.

[grahambop]

Can I use ‘twee and risible’ as a pull quote for the promo for Rage Against the Tagine’s first EP Resistance is Useless?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Resistance is Twee and Risible.

[ragman1]

As usual you are missing the point that has been repeatedly made

No, I'm not, obviously, it's been repeated often enough. But I think we're getting exercises and soloing a bit mixed up. At least, that's my impression.

Doesn’t mean I’d try and play a whole solo in continuous 8ths, in fact I’m sure I couldn’t.

Absolutely. In fact, I wouldn't want to even if I could!

I was thinking that Martino came very close to it with some very long lines of 8ths. And even he got criticism because people found it grated on them after a while.

[Tal_175]

Alright I’m going to take this on a journey.

I don’t play a lot of scalar lines when I practice. I have done rather a lot of diatonic interval and arpeggio stuff, but I don’t play a lot of scalar stuff generally, and I might say very little stepwise scalar stuff.

So I’m going to go for the most purist form of this exercise that has been described here.

Pure eighth notes, stepwise chord scales.

We’re going to see what happens.

I'll record a purely scalar version of this exercise today if I get a chance. I'll use the scales I posted earlier:

I am using the following scales:

I am using the following scales:
Dminor (tonic): Dorian or MM
Emin7b5: E locrian#9
A7alt: A Phrygian dominant or altered
Bmin7b5: B locrian (it's the same as D dorian).
E7b9: E altered or Phrygian dominant
A7alt: same as above
D9: Vanilla dominant
G13: Vanilla dominant
C7: ditto
F7: ditto
BbMaj7: This is can be augmented, lydian or major (I do major mostly)

[grahambop]

But I think we're getting exercises and soloing a bit mixed up. At least, that's my impression.

Exactly, I think it’s only you who is confusing them.

The way I look at it is that if I can (almost) play a reasonably musical and continuous 8th-note line through a tune for one chorus (as a practice exercise), then it subsequently becomes much easier for me to play an actual solo with long lines and phrase them by stopping and starting them at will anywhere in the form. Or by inserting some shorter motifs here and there.

The ability to play long (and musical) lines is (it seems to me) one of the harder things to do well on the guitar, I think most amateurs struggle with it. So any exercise which ‘flexes those muscles’ so to speak, is surely beneficial.

If you don’t think so, that’s fine. But it gets a bit tedious that you have to keep telling us so.

There’s also the point that players such as Joe Pass, Howard Roberts and Adam Rogers advocate this exercise. Bizarre as it may seem, I am more likely to heed their musical advice than yours.

[ragman1]

Exactly, I think it’s only you who is confusing them.

Not at all, I'm distinctly separating them.

The way I look at it is that if I can (almost) play a reasonably musical and continuous 8th-note line through a tune for one chorus (as a practice exercise), then it subsequently becomes much easier for me to play an actual solo with long lines and phrase them by stopping and starting them at will anywhere in the form. Or by inserting some shorter motifs here and there.

Absolutely, couldn't agree more.

The ability to play long (and musical) lines is (it seems to me) one of the harder things to do well on the guitar, I think most amateurs struggle with it. So any exercise which ‘flexes those muscles’ so to speak, is surely beneficial.

Agreed completely.

If you don’t think so, that’s fine. But it gets a bit tedious that you have to keep telling us so.

But it's not what I said. I know that posts any further back than a page virtually cease to exist (!) but what I said right from the start was that I thought people were more focussed on playing exercises than actually improvising. I'm not condemning the exercises or, heaven forbid, say they shouldn't be doing it, only that improvising is a completely different thing to practicing laid-down exercises.

The belief seems to be 'If I play these long and hard enough I'll become a good improviser'. I don't think that's true. I think the exercise will obviously improve certain abilities and skills and probably make the improvising more fluent. But practicing is one thing and improvising is another. It's a different world.

Mick said he thought his skills were deteriorating rather than improving. And inevitably the cry was 'Do it more, do it harder!'. I've heard this sort of thing before. I used to know people in Brighton who practiced meditation, or what they thought was meditation. When they sat there trying to perform some stupid mind-control thing and found themselves getting angry they were told they weren't trying it hard enough or long enough, and blah blah blah. I told them it wasn't meditation, doing it would harm them, and not to part with any money. I don't know what happened to them.

I mean, I've heard your recordings. Probably Blue Bossa was your tour de force, many complex choruses of seamless bebop lines. You're really very good at it. But, tell me, what were you actually practicing at the time, if you can remember? Were you doing exercises or practicing the tune?

[James W]

I thought people were more focussed on playing exercises than actually improvising. I'm not condemning the exercises or, heaven forbid, say they shouldn't be doing it, only that improvising is a completely different thing to practicing laid-down exercises.

How do you know what anyone is focused on? BTW the continuous eighth exercise is not completely different thing to improvising - in fact it is still improvising, just within a set parameter. It can be helpful to restrict yourself in improvisational exercises which has all sorts of benefits already mentioned.

The belief seems to be 'If I play these long and hard enough I'll become a good improviser'. I don't think that's true. I think the exercise will obviously improve certain abilities and skills and probably make the improvising more fluent. But practicing is one thing and improvising is another. It's a different world.

You're contradicting yourself. If you admit it could help the fluency of improvising, obviously the exercises are not a 'different world'.

I mean, I've heard your recordings. Probably Blue Bossa was your tour de force, many complex choruses of seamless bebop lines. You're really very good at it. But, tell me, what were you actually practicing at the time, if you can remember? Were you doing exercises or practicing the tune?

Considering Graham has already vouched for the improv exercises repeatedly, I can't see the point of you asking this question.

[grahambop]

I think the exercise will obviously improve certain abilities and skills and probably make the improvising more fluent.

EXACTLY! That’s all we’re saying. So you agree with me really.

Actually I think Mick’s last effort showed improvement.

As for what I practised before I recorded Blue Bossa, it was very much along the lines of this exercise, i.e. just constantly trying to build longer and longer 8th note lines over the form of the tune.

To be honest I can’t be bothered to discuss this any further with you, it’s pointless.

[pamosmusic]

Anyone who takes what they do seriously will be constantly evaluating their strengths and weaknesses and coming up with ways to get better.

Someone who thinks that instinct is a waste of time, sort of by definition doesn’t take what they do terribly seriously.

[supersoul]

I wish the thread had been called "Approaches to Improvisational Exercises"

All I know is that the exercise is hard. I can't do it well, but it's fun to practice while watching a crappy movie.
Practicing is always better than not practicing, except when there's an audience (I guess there's an audience here, but you know what I mean, a paying audience of people on dates).

[grahambop]

You can always break it up into chunks, e.g. just try playing a line over 4 bars of the tune. Actually I tend to do that a lot with a new or tricky tune. Still valuable practice.