Approaches to Improvisation

[CliffR]

Had a few goes at the continuous 8ths exercise on All Of Me, which one of the tunes I've spent a few months on now, so I'm reasonably comfortable with the changes. This was my 3rd or 4th try, at 100bpm, playing mostly chord tones, although a couple of chromatic notes and 6ths crept in at times, and there were 2-3 places where I stopped for a beat. In case it's not obvious, it's improvised.

So yeah, definitely a tricky exercise, but a cool one to work on. Showed me I'm least comfortable on the FM7->Fm6->Em7 change.

[Mick-7]

Useful information from Howard Roberts Praxis System, Vol. 2. See the attached pdf for the remedy to the problem posed.

[pamosmusic]

o.k., but you don't need to hear the chord progression to do that well?

Do you need to be able to hear the chord progression?

Yes. In your ear, in the triads you’re playing, etc. I’ll sometimes sing chord roots or something while I do little exercises. Particularly if they aren’t super illustrative of the chord progression on their own — guide tone lines maybe. But also that’s not really an issue when it comes to triads. They’re extremely illustrative of the changes.

Do you need to be able to hear the chord progression in the bass and piano, in real time?

Definitely not.

[Mick-7]

Do you need to be able to hear the chord progression?

Yes. In your ear, in the triads you’re playing, etc.

Do you need to be able to hear the chord progression in the bass and piano, in real time?

Definitely not.

Are you're saying that when you're formulating your melodic ideas, you're imagining (or remembering) the sound of the chords you'll play them over? (since you're not hearing them played). And you found it better to imagine them than to respond to a recording (backing track) of them?

[GuyBoden]

Useful information from Howard Roberts Praxis System, Vol. 2. See the attached pdf for the remedy to the problem posed.

Yes, embellishing the Melody is very a good option, that's all I did 30 years ago, but on an extremely simple level.

Edit: "one Likes what one knows"

[grahambop]

At what tempo are you playing them?

Around 140 bpm.

[pamosmusic]

Are you're saying that when you're formulating your melodic ideas, you're imagining (or remembering) the sound of the chords you'll play them over? (since you're not hearing them played). And you found it better to imagine them than to respond to a recording (backing track) of them?

This is a pretty normal thing, I think.

What you’re calling “imagination” is generally referred to as “aural memory” or “audiation,” and it’s the whole point of ear training. At least as I understand it.

I don’t mean to be weird here, but you do tend to hop into conversations and say that you don’t do x or y thing because you play the lines you hear and let your ear guide you. So I’m a little surprised that this is a weird thing to you.

[pamosmusic]

Useful information from Howard Roberts Praxis System, Vol. 2. See the attached pdf for the remedy to the problem posed.

Oh I just recorded a thing on this for a student. I’ll post when it’s done.

[BreckerFan]

It's *much* better to be able to do the continuous 8ths exercise without a track than with (as long as you're keeping yourself honest). You ought to be able to both hear the changes internally prior to your line and also clearly imply the changes in your line without relying on someone else playing the chords to fill in the gaps. Practicing with a track is great, but it should not be about the track dictating the harmony to you, it should be practicing interacting with the rest of the band. Otherwise the track quickly becomes a crutch.

[pamosmusic]

Oh I just recorded a thing on this for a student. I’ll post when it’s done.

Here's that:

Still If I Were a Bell ... this time in Gb.

We're working with guide tone lines and with motifs from the melody. Video's a little shoddy, but I'm working on it.

[Tal_175]

I am working on Yesterday's. It's a good workout because a lot of the chords require scale change every bar. I can go fast (160+) if I allow some sloppiness and stick to an area. If I make sure I make the chords every bar, everywhere on the fretboard, I had to slow down to 70-80 for now.

I am using the following scales:

I am using the following scales:
Dminor (tonic): Dorian or MM
Emin7b5: E locrian#9
A7alt: A Phrygian dominant or altered
Bmin7b5: B locrian (it's the same as D dorian).
E7b9: E altered or Phrygian dominant
A7alt: same as above
D9: Vanilla dominant
G13: Vanilla dominant
C7: ditto
F7: ditto
BbMaj7: This is can be augmented, lydian or major (I do major mostly)

[Mick-7]

This is a pretty normal thing, I think.

What you’re calling “imagination” is generally referred to as “aural memory” or “audiation,” and it’s the whole point of ear training. At least as I understand it.

I don’t mean to be weird here, but you do tend to hop into conversations and say that you don’t do x or y thing because you play the lines you hear and let your ear guide you. So I’m a little surprised that this is a weird thing to you.

I didn't say it was weird, just trying to clarify what you were saying, why you're not using use a backing track. I think it's a good idea but it doesn't suit the continuous 8th notes exercise because the practice is to play a tune from beginning to end at a constant tempo without pause. Furthermore, you may be practicing the exercise on a tune that you've never played before or that has unusual chord changes (as I am with a Bill Evans tune).

[Tal_175]

I didn't say it was weird, just trying to clarify what you were saying, why you're not using use a backing track. I think it's a good idea but it doesn't suit the continuous 8th notes exercise because the practice is to play a tune from beginning to end at a constant tempo without pause.

Why is that?

[pamosmusic]

I didn't say it was weird, just trying to clarify what you were saying, why you're not using use a backing track. I think it's a good idea but it doesn't suit the continuous 8th notes exercise because the practice is to play a tune from beginning to end at a constant tempo without pause. Furthermore, you may be practicing the exercise on a tune that you've never played before or that has unusual chord changes (as I am with a Bill Evans tune).

Well I’m going to note a couple things here.

Youre saying the utility here is to keep you on tempo, to keep you from pausing, and to keep you on track on a tune with difficult changes.

So those are all three ways of using the track as a crutch. It’s fine, but they’re also things you shouldn’t need a track for beyond a certain point.

I’ll also note that I didn’t say I practice a continuous eighth note exercise without a track right away with a tune I don’t know. I said I play triads and voiceleading exercises, which are things that outline the harmony in the simplest most straightforward way. Also I mentioned a couple times that this isn’t an exercise I use much at all.

And on that point, you seem to be preoccupied with the notion that someone might be using this exercise on an unfamiliar tune. Putting aside for a moment that we just had a long digression where you needed to clarify that you’re not really talking about strict continuous eighth notes anyway, I would be really skeptical of telling someone to do this with an unfamiliar tune in the first place.

Continuous eighth notes is tough. Backing track or not, I would probably suggest someone start with exercises that give them the space to clearly outline the harmony.

[Mick-7]

Why is that?

Not sure what you're asking?

The question is, can you improvise skillfully in continuous 8th notes over an unfamiliar tune without hearing it played - i.e., simply by "audiating" the chord changes. If your answer is yes, then by all means, dispense with a backing track.

You're saying the utility here is to keep you on tempo, to keep you from pausing, and to keep you on track on a tune with difficult changes. So those are all three ways of using the track as a crutch. It’s fine, but they’re also things you shouldn’t need a track for beyond a certain point.

You could use a metronome or drum machine instead, would that be a crutch?

You seem to be preoccupied with the notion that someone might be using this exercise on an unfamiliar tune. Putting aside for a moment that we just had a long digression where you needed to clarify that you’re not really talking about strict continuous eighth notes anyway, I would be really skeptical of telling someone to do this with an unfamiliar tune in the first place.

I would be practicing the exercise on tunes I don't know, I don't find it difficult to play continuous 8th notes on tunes I do know - not counting very fast tempos.

[Tal_175]

Not sure what you're asking?

The question is, can you improvise skillfully in continuous 8th notes over an unfamiliar tune without hearing it played - i.e., simply by "audiating" the chord changes. If your answer is yes, then by all means, dispense with a backing track.

The continuous eighth-note exercise does not require audiating the changes—in fact, it works in the opposite way. One of its key benefits is training your ears to internalize the harmony of the tune. The idea is to play steady eighth notes while staying mentally aware of the form and chord changes. This requires the ability to outline chords using mostly scalar motions, ensuring smooth transitions with minimal motion. To achieve this, you must eliminate "root bias" in your chord outlines and focus on connecting chords through different tones, whether chord tones or extensions.
Practicing long melodic phrases that flow through the changes reinforces this concept. You should always be conscious of the current chord, the upcoming chord, and your position within the form. Additionally, playing continuous eighth notes enhances your sense of musical space—whether spanning one bar, two bars, or larger sections of four bars.

[BreckerFan]

Who is doing continuous 8th notes on an "unfamiliar tune", track or no track? It's not designed to be an exercise for learning a tune.

[Tal_175]

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make to Peter, it's a poor fit with this exercise.

What is a poor fit for this exercise?

[Mick-7]

Who is doing continuous 8th notes on an "unfamiliar tune", track or no track? It's not designed to be an exercise for learning a tune.

I'll repeat what I said in a previous post: "I would be practicing the exercise on tunes I don't know (or don't know well), I don't find it difficult to play continuous 8th notes on tunes I do know - not counting very fast tempos."

What is a poor fit for this exercise?

Audiating the chord changes, for the reasons I just stated.

[pamosmusic]

I'll repeat what I said in a previous post: "I would be practicing the exercise on tunes I don't know (or don't know well), I don't find it difficult to play continuous 8th notes on tunes I do know - not counting very fast tempos."

Okay Mick, fine. Who gives a crap?

Do what you think is best. If I’d known doing the exercise you prescribed would result in three pages of you telling me I’m doing it wrong, then I wouldn’t have done it.

And hey, yknow what … not to toot my own horn, but while I do know If I Were a Bell, I did perform this exercise transposed to B major and without a backing track.

So with your permission, I’ll continue to practice without a backing track.

And I’ll trust everyone else to use a track or not as they see fit. Which seems fine to me.

[BreckerFan]

The point of the exercise is to practice clearly outlining the harmony continuously through the changes. If you are unfamiliar with the harmony, you can't clearly outline it. Using a track to cover that up is not a solution to the problem.

[Tal_175]

I'll repeat what I said in a previous post: "I would be practicing the exercise on tunes I don't know (or don't know well), I don't find it difficult to play continuous 8th notes on tunes I do know - not counting very fast tempos."

Note the exercise is not playing continuous 8th notes, it's playing continuous 8th notes while staying chord specific and making the changes.

[BreckerFan]

Adam Rogers advocates for the exercise and demonstrates it in the following way. He played Stella (a tune he is certainly familiar with) with a drum loop. He played absolutely continuous 8th notes in two ways, first with no limitations, and then with the limitation that the maximum allowed interval is a major third, ie scales and arpeggios in thirds are allowed. His states goal was to clearly outline the harmony without stopping.

If someone wants to argue that Adam Rogers is doing it wrong you can I guess, but I'm probably gonna side with him.

[Mick-7]

The point of the exercise is to practice clearly outlining the harmony continuously through the changes. If you are unfamiliar with the harmony, you can't clearly outline it. Using a track to cover that up is not a solution to the problem.

Actually, that's not the purpose of this exercise, you could do that by reading a lead sheet of the tune, you wouldn't need to hear it. And if I can only clearly outline the harmony of tunes I already know, there are other things I need to work on.

Adam Rogers advocates for the exercise and demonstrates it in the following way. His states goal was to clearly outline the harmony without stopping.

It has other applications, I got it from Joe Pass, outlining the changes was not it's primary purpose.

[Mick-7]

Do what you think is best. If I’d known doing the exercise you prescribed would result in three pages of you telling me I’m doing it wrong, then I wouldn’t have done it.

I never said you were "doing it wrong," just inquired why you were doing it as you did.

Note the exercise is not playing continuous 8th notes, it's playing continuous 8th notes while staying chord specific and making the changes.

Yes, I think that is assumed.