Approaches to Improvisation

[BreckerFan]

It's unclear what the purpose of it is if not to practice clearly outlining the harmony without stopping.

[pamosmusic]

I never said you were "doing it wrong," just inquired why you were doing it as you did.

Oh right, you just said "Yes, that was the point I was trying to make to Peter, it's a poor fit with this exercise."

[Mick-7]

It's unclear what the purpose of it is if not to practice clearly outlining the harmony without stopping.

In my initial post in this thread I said, "Thought I'd start the thread with an improv approach I learned from Joe Pass at a guitar workshop, which is: Take a tune you're learning and play continuous 8th note lines over the chord changes; as a way to explore the tunes harmonic structure and find linear ways to connect the chords."

So, according to him, the primary purpose of the exercise was to develop the ability to play smooth melodic lines, that connect and flow over the chord changes. Whereas, outlining the chords is a limited technical application of it.

Oh right, you just said "Yes, that was the point I was trying to make to Peter, it's a poor fit with this exercise."

And I'd say that true if you are doing the exercise for the reason that Joe Pass gave, but you were not.

[BreckerFan]

How is playing "smooth melodic lines that connect and flow over the chord changes" different from clearly outlining the harmony without stopping? Do lines not outline the harmony?

[pamosmusic]

And I'd say that true if you are doing the exercise for the reason that Joe Pass gave, but you were not.

I'm sorry, was I not?

[Mick-7]

How is playing "smooth melodic lines that connect and flow over the chord changes" different from clearly outlining the harmony without stopping?

Do lines not outline the harmony?

They may not clearly outline the harmony, since that's not the main aim of the exercise. The operative word in that sentence is "melodic," you can outline the harmony in an unmusical way, by arpeggiating the chords, etc.

[Tal_175]

This is how you described the exercise and its purpose in the original post:

Take a tune you're learning and play continuous 8th note lines over the chord changes; as a way to explore the tunes harmonic structure and find linear ways to connect the chords.

But now you are saying:

They may not clearly outline the harmony, since that's not the main aim of the exercise.

The original post describes outlining harmony and states that as the purpose of the exercise, no?

[BreckerFan]

They may not clearly outline the harmony, since that's not the main aim of the exercise. The operative word in that sentence is "melodic," you can outline the harmony in an unmusical way, by arpeggiating the chords, etc.

That their are lines that non-melodically outline the harmony, does not imply that melodic lines do not outline the harmony.

So is it your position that melodic lines do not outline the harmony?

[grahambop]

I’m going to shut up and keep playing my guitar. In 8th notes of course.

[BreckerFan]

I've only been arguing this much as a distraction from the pain the Phillies are currently causing me, but I think now I need the Phillies to distract me from this thread.

[Mick-7]

This conversation is getting anal. Use the exercise for whatever purpose you want, you could focus on outlining the chord changes or you could focus on playing good sounding lines that reflect the chord changes but don't outline them. You could even avoid playing chord tones, aim for chord extensions and chromatics. Use your imagination.

I've only been arguing this much as a distraction from the pain the Phillies are currently causing me.

I take it they are doing a poor job of outlining the changes?

[pamosmusic]

This conversation is getting anal.

Well golly gee, I wonder why

[lawson-stone]

You all sound like a bunch of church people debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Reminds me of what Wyatt Earp said to Ike Clanton, "Ike, you talk too much for a fighting man."

[pamosmusic]

You all sound like a bunch of church people debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Reminds me of what Wyatt Earp said to Ike Clanton, "Ike, you talk too much for a fighting man."

Don't look at me, I've officially posted more recordings than the OP. They're just all incorrect in various ways.

I fight too much for a talking man?

[CliffR]

The continuous arpeggio exercise is great for a number of reasons, but it does mean one can end up starting a new bar/chord with an arbitrary note from the new chord. Playing the basic chord from here effectively means you're playing an inversion, right? I seem to remember reading inversions aren't very common in bebop, so it seems like the goal instead would be to land on particular chord tones, say root or third, from which new arpeggios you can started. Can anyone recommend any exercises to help with this more targeted approach? I guess the classic is scale down and arpeggio up. Do folks just learn which notes to start the scale from and count in order to land on an interesting starting point for the following arpeggio?

[James W]

The continuous arpeggio exercise is great for a number of reasons, but it does mean one can end up starting a new bar/chord with an arbitrary note from the new chord. Playing the basic chord from here effectively means you're playing an inversion, right? I seem to remember reading inversions aren't very common in bebop, so it seems like the goal instead would be to land on particular chord tones, say root or third, from which new arpeggios you can started. Can anyone recommend any exercises to help with this more targeted approach? I guess the classic is scale down and arpeggio up. Do folks just learn which notes to start the scale from and count in order to land on an interesting starting point for the following arpeggio?

If you start an arpeggio on the third, that is an inversion. I wouldn't worry about not starting a bar with a root chord tone while doing the continuous arpeggio exercise (that is sort of the point) and personally I would regard with suspicion avoiding inversions because a book says it's not bebop ... But each to their own.

[Strat-itis]

I seem to remember reading inversions aren't very common in bebop.

Well whoever wrote that is misinformed. Lines can be rooted on any chord or scale tone. Almost everything is technically an inversion. I'm working on some Milt where over the Bb7 chord in an F blues, he plays C the 9th down to Eb the 11th and then plays scalarly back up.

[CliffR]

If you start an arpeggio on the third, that is an inversion. I wouldn't worry about not starting a bar with a root chord tone while doing the continuous arpeggio exercise (that is sort of the point) and personally I would regard with suspicion avoiding inversions because a book says it's not bebop ... But each to their own.

I meant an arpeggio with the third as root, so 3/5/7/9 with respect to the original chord. This seems to come up very often in Parker lines.

Really, I'm after a different exercise to teach me to think ahead and be able to target specific notes.

[CliffR]

Well whoever wrote that is misinformed. Lines can be rooted on any chord or scale tone. Almost everything is technically an inversion. I'm working on some Milt where over the Bb7 chord in an F blues, he plays C the 9th down to Eb the 11th and then plays scalarly back up.

I'm making a distinction between arpeggios starting on different chord tones (eg 3/5/7/9, 5/7/9/11) and inversions of the original chord (3/5/7/1 etc). So which is this arpeggio starting on the C you mention?

(Note also I said 'not very common': I didn't say 'not present at all'.)

[James W]

I meant an arpeggio with the third as root, so 3/5/7/9 with respect to the original chord. This seems to come up very often in Parker lines.

Really, I'm after a different exercise to teach me to think ahead and be able to target specific notes.

No, the root is the root and the third the third, irrespective of what the lowest note happens to be. 'Root' is not a synonym for 'lowest note'.

Any kind of continuous scale or arpeggio exercise should teach you to think ahead. You could write an etude targeting specific notes. There is a good book called 'Chord Tone Soloing For Jazz Guitar' that features some systematic exercises for targeting particular intervals on chords that might interest you.

[Strat-itis]

I'm making a distinction between arpeggios starting on different chord tones (eg 3/5/7/9, 5/7/9/11) and inversions of the original chord (3/5/7/1 etc). So which is this arpeggio starting on the C you mention?

(Note also I said 'not very common': I didn't say 'not present at all'.)

Yeah no they do that too if you study transcriptions. Just straight up inversions are used like b7/1/3/5. Any organization or basing of the chords are fair game.

[CliffR]

No, the root is the root and the third the third, irrespective of what the lowest note happens to be.

Let me try again. Say the chord is CM7. If I play 3/5/7/9, I play E, G, B, D. That's not an inversion of C. It's an Em7.

[James W]

Let me try again. Say the chord is CM7. If I play 3/5/7/9, I play E, G, B, D. That's not an inversion of C. It's an Em7.

I see what you're saying. That might be regarded as an inverted form of an extension of CM7. In any case, it might raise a few eyebrows if you describe the third as the root because it's incorrect - after all, whatever you're playing is heard in relation to the underlying CM7.

[GuyBoden]

I see what you're saying. That might be regarded as an inverted form of an extension of CM7. In any case, it might raise a few eyebrows if you describe the third as the root because it's incorrect - after all, whatever you're playing is heard in relation to the underlying CM7.

In olden days playing an arpeggio from the third of the Major was sometimes simply called the "secondary relative minor scale arpeggio", but times have changed.

Joe Pass book?

[supersoul]

Take a tune you're learning and play continuous 8th note lines over the chord changes; as a way to explore the tunes harmonic structure and find linear ways to connect the chords.

I feel like I'm always learning tunes better. There are some I know better than others, but there isn't a tune that I can't learn more.
So I take this to mean just any tune I'm focussing on right now, not as a way of learning a brand new tune.
When I try this on tunes I think I know well, it shows some weaknesses.