Approaches to Improvisation

[Tal_175]

Is that a problem?

It sounds like you need an octave pedal.

[pamosmusic]

It sounds like you need an octave pedal.

It sounds like you need a … wait …

[Mick-7]

I don't think that's what Joe Pass had in mind as in the book "Joe Pass Guitar Style" where he talks about this exercise he specifically asks to focus on "8th note lines" and in the examples, the lines outline the changes.

I just looked at the book, saw no mention of this particular exercise.
.

The distinction you are making with "outlining changes" and playing "lines that flow over the changes" is I believe playing the changes vs floating over the changes with the parent scale (or harmonic generalization). So basically playing melodies that don't clash with the harmony vs outlining the harmony. They are both part of the jazz language.

One can "outline the changes" and "play lines that flow over the changes" at the same time, so it can be the same exercise but with a different emphasis. As I said, I'll upload a recording later today that shows what I mean, and you can judge for yourself whether my lines "float".... or sink.

[Tal_175]

It sounds like you need a … wait …

I don't set the rules. I thought you were doing the exercise described in the original post in boldface.

[pamosmusic]

I don't set the rules. I thought you were doing the exercise described in the original post in boldface.

Boss, I couldn’t care less at this point what the prescribed exercise is. Every time I post something y’all give me a reason why it’s wrong.

Sooooo … I’ll stop, or I’ll post stuff that seems relevant to what people are asking about.

In the meantime, maybe you actually participate rather than heckling from the cheap seats?

[Tal_175]

I just looked at the book, saw no mention of this particular exercise.

Page 35. The description at the top.

[Tal_175]

Boss, I couldn’t care less at this point what the prescribed exercise is. Every time I post something y’all give me a reason why it’s wrong.

Sooooo … I’ll stop, or I’ll post stuff that seems relevant to what people are asking about.

In the meantime, maybe you actually participate rather than heckling from the cheap seats?

I am not heckling or telling you you are wrong. I am just wondering why you chose to play it in quarter notes.

[pamosmusic]

I am not heckling or telling you you are wrong. I am just wondering why you chose to play it in quarter notes.

Sure.

Arpeggios in eighth notes sounds shreddy and I find, generally speaking, I’m using an octave at most of a consecutive arpeggio. When I’m working on connecting stuff, it makes a little more sense to work on them a bit slower to leave room for embellishment or whatever. I'm more inclined to do half notes than eighth notes.

The original exercise Shepik described was whole, half, half triplet, quarter, quarter quintuplet, quarter triplet, eighth note.

I usually do more stuff with the exercise, but keep the rhythms slower and more limited.

[BreckerFan]

Still unclear to me what the difference between outlining the harmony and flowing over the harmony is. And how the exercise clearly isn't about the one but definitely is about the other.

I was gonna record something yesterday but not sure I wanna bother at this point lol.

[Mick-7]

Page 35. The description at the top.

o.k., I see that but he's not outlining the chord changes as you said. He says: "By eliminating rhythmic variety, you force the ear into building better melodies."

[Tal_175]

o.k., I see that but he's not outlining the chord changes as you said. He says: "By eliminating rhythmic variety, you force the ear into building better melodies."

What I said was, in the exercises he outlines the changes in 8th notes.

[Mick-7]

Boss, I couldn’t care less at this point what the prescribed exercise is. Every time I post something y’all give me a reason why it’s wrong.

Sooooo … I’ll stop, or I’ll post stuff that seems relevant to what people are asking abou

To reiterate, I led off this thread by suggesting a particular exercise, the continuous 8th notes exercise. This was only a suggestion.

I entitled the thread "Approaches to Improvisation," because I'd like to discuss various approaches rather than any particular one. So whatever strategies you or anyone else wants to share is fine with me as long as they're improvisation related.

[GuyBoden]

Page 35. The description at the top.

o.k., I see that but he's not outlining the chord changes as you said. He says: "By eliminating rhythmic variety, you force the ear into building better melodies."

What I said was, in the exercises he outlines the changes in 8th notes.

Joe Pass Book Quote: "These solos are in straight 8th-notes. By eliminating rhythmic variety, you force the ear into building better melodies. 8th-note studies also tend to avoid the practice of playing memorized licks."

Is this Quote above the definitive answer to the 'Approach to Improvisation' thread?

[pamosmusic]

Mmk. So I'm going to say something, and I hope it's not controversial.

We all have strengths and weaknesses. One thing that I am really rather good at is thinking about my limitations, or someone else's limitations, and dreaming up little practice ideas that can help fill in those gaps.

So ... here's the thing I'm going to say ...

If you want to be better, you have to be flexible in your approach to practicing.

You have to acknowledge and accept that you don't know everything.

You have to acknowledge and accept that people who may or may not have more experience than you might have something to offer.

You have to be open to the fact that you can learn more than one thing from an experience or that you can look at something you already do from a new perspective.

Learning something from someone else is not a reflection of your deficiency as a musician. Quite the contrary actually.

So for the love of all that is holy, post your shit, and stop arguing about the right way to do it. Truly madly deeply who gives a crap. I'd be way more interested to hear one of you try doing something the way Cliff does it than hear you both pontificate about the correct way to do this exercise.

[pamosmusic]

To reiterate, I led off this thread by suggesting a particular exercise, the continuous 8th notes exercise. This was only a suggestion.

I entitled the thread "Approaches to Improvisation," because I'd like to discuss various approaches rather than any particular one. So whatever strategies you or anyone else wants to share is fine with me as long as they're improvisation related.

Great. So maybe stop arguing the semantics and get on with it.

[Mick-7]

What I said was, in the exercises he outlines the changes in 8th notes.

Seems we have different definitions of what "outlining the changes" means, he's playing altered chord tones, etc.

Joe Pass Book Quote: "These solos are in straight 8th-notes. By eliminating rhythmic variety, you force the ear into building better melodies. 8th-note studies also tend to avoid the practice of playing memorized licks."

Is this Quote above the definitive answer to the 'Approach to Improvisation' thread?

No, as Peter implied in his last post (#166), there are no definitive answers, musicianship is always a work in progress.

[pamosmusic]

Great. So maybe stop arguing the semantics and get on with it.

... , he said to no one.

[Tal_175]

Seems we have different definitions of what "outlining the changes" means, he's playing altered chord tones, etc.

It does seem like we have different understanding of outlining the changes. I can't think of a more obvious example of outlining the changes than the examples starting page 35. They are borderline artificial in the way how purely the changes are outlined.

[nyc chaz]

Joe Pass Book Quote: "These solos are in straight 8th-notes. By eliminating rhythmic variety, you force the ear into building better melodies. 8th-note studies also tend to avoid the practice of playing memorized licks."

Is this Quote above the definitive answer to the 'Approach to Improvisation' thread?

Back in the stone age,that Joe Pass book was my gateway into jazz guitar.Playing 8th notes like that is definitely a way to to give you a firm foundation into jazz soloing.

[Tal_175]

In the meantime, maybe you actually participate rather than heckling from the cheap seats?

Obviously giving you an arousal with my flowing lines over the changes is not the only reason I play guitar. Be patient. I have posted stuff in the past. I'll post something probably later.

[pamosmusic]

Obviously giving you an arousal with my flowing lines over the changes is not the only reason I play guitar. Be patient. I have posted stuff in the past. I'll post something probably later.

lol ... how patient?

I've never seen it.

[Mick-7]

It does seem like we have different understanding of outlining the changes. I can't think of a more obvious example of outlining the changes than the examples starting page 35. They are borderline artificial in the way how purely the changes are outlined.

I'll have to play it, is it musically coherent or a composed etude? If the latter, we're unlikely to ever improvise anything like it live anyway.

[GuyBoden]

Joe Pass Book Quote: "These solos are in straight 8th-notes. By eliminating rhythmic variety, you force the ear into building better melodies. 8th-note studies also tend to avoid the practice of playing memorized licks."


I'll admit to actually doing this during my practice today, over quite a few songs. I hope I'm forgiven.

[ragman1]

Still no one is IMPROVISING. You're doing pre-written exercises so you can improvise in the future... next week, next year, maybe never.

IMPROVISE Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

[pamosmusic]

Still no one is IMPROVISING. You're doing pre-written exercises so you can improvise in the future... next week, next year, maybe never.

IMPROVISE Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

ragman, shove off.

None of mine have been prewritten.