Approaches to Improvisation

[pamosmusic]

Ragman what are you talking about?

[pamosmusic]

I ragged on Mick enough on the last one so I figured I should be productive.

Ive been working on If I Were a Bell.

So here’s continuous eighth notes over If I Were a Bell in B major.

There are some little stumbles but hey … it’s in B … sue me.

Continuous eighth notes over If I Were a Bell in B. Hiccups included. - YouTube

(the video option won’t work for me, but hopefully Guy will be along shortly to fix it with no comment. Not all heroes wear capes.)

[Mick-7]

How about improvised, continuous 8th notes through the changes. By improvised I mean not playing lines worked out before hand. It's still an exercise and therefore a limited from of improvisation as the lines are continuous and made up of notes that come from the chord in the moment.
Some modifications in the spirit of the exercise to adjust the difficulty depending on the familiarity with the tune (or the instrument) could be:

- Tempo can be as slow as it needs to be.
- Continuous quarter notes, triplets, or 16th are possible. But only one these per exercise.
- The harmony can be simplified and multiple changes can be approximated with a single chord when appropriate.
- The exercise can span over the entire range of the instrument or it can be limited to a 5th interval (8 frets) or anything in between.

Thank you for elaborating on this exercise, it's designed to be an educational tool, not a form of torture as ragman implied. I admit my example was poor, I'll do another one with a more clearly audible backing track.

And other approaches are welcome: connecting chord tones, improvising on the melody, embellishing licks, etc., whatever method(s) one finds useful.

I can do this to some extent (continuous 8th note improv), but every now and then I get ‘painted into a corner’ (or go wrong) and have to stop for a moment and figure out how to get out of it.

That's kind of the point of the exercise, to practice getting out of painted corners alive. You will fumble at times, if you never do, the chord changes are too easy or the tempo is too slow for you.

[grahambop]

Absolutely, but you're already very good. You've got the talent and the T-shirt after all this time. If a person has the basic interest and aptitude then the skill can be improved on with work. I mean, that's what all the pros do, except they probably find it easier than most.

But if, like me, it's not given then you have to find another way.

hmm, I don’t like the word ‘talent’, I absolutely don’t have it. (I used to know a professional cellist who definitely had it, from when she was about 6!).

More just getting somewhere through sheer bloody persistence for a few decades, in my case.

Saying ‘I was not chosen’ sounds suspiciously like an excuse, to me…

[lawson-stone]

I like the exercise and am planning to do an example based on Miss Jones but it'll be another day due to work schedule and property issues at home. But I'll try it, and I hope since I'm not a very brilliant player, just a guy who loves the music and slogs along as best I can, perhaps my example can either be an encouragement... or a warning...

[Mick-7]

I ragged on Mick enough on the last one so I figured I should be productive.

Ive been working on If I Were a Bell.

So here’s continuous eighth notes over If I Were a Bell in B major.

There are some little stumbles but hey … it’s in B … sue me.

Continuous eighth notes over If I Were a Bell in B. Hiccups included. - YouTube

(the video option won’t work for me, but hopefully Guy will be along shortly to fix it with no comment. Not all heroes wear capes.)

Ah, no backing track at all! Kind of a different animal, one can't be sure if one is making the changes - to tell if you were really a bell or just a bellhop.

[Tal_175]

Ah, no backing track at all! Kind of a different animal, one can't be sure if one is making the changes - to tell if you were really a bell or just a bellhop.

Playing continuous 8th notes also help you develop the skill of knowing where you are in the form without leaning on others or backing tracks.

[pamosmusic]

Ah, no backing track at all! Kind of a different animal, one can't be sure if one is making the changes - to tell if you were really a bell or just a bellhop.

ohhhhhhh come on now.

I keep getting this when I post stuff, but where did this come from?

I very very rarely practice with a backing track. They’re wonderful and people should use them. Just not what I do … but I keep getting this from folks.

You should probably be able to track the changes without the track, no?

At least in this case … except for my couple stumbles it’s just the straight changes. Not really any subs or extensions or anything.

[pamosmusic]

Or put more productively …

…

Why is the backing track necessary?

For me — I don’t often use one for the same reason Tal cites above. In addition to which, I think focusing on melodic continuity ends up giving you more flexibility when you’re working on the changes, so focusing on what the lines sound like on their own. I would generally work on single phrases and play without the backing track than get through the whole tune at once with the track.

I certainly have used tracks in the past, but don’t now so much.

Anyway. THOUGHTS?

[GuyBoden]

I ragged on Mick enough on the last one so I figured I should be productive.

Ive been working on If I Were a Bell.

So here’s continuous eighth notes over If I Were a Bell in B major.

There are some little stumbles but hey … it’s in B … sue me.

Continuous eighth notes over If I Were a Bell in B. Hiccups included. - YouTube

(the video option won’t work for me, but hopefully Guy will be along shortly to fix it with no comment. Not all heroes wear capes.)

Edit: Outlining the changes with No Backing Track is more difficult. IMHO.

[Mick-7]

ohhhhhhh come on now.

I keep getting this when I post stuff, but where did this come from?

I very very rarely practice with a backing track. They’re wonderful and people should use them. Just not what I do … but I keep getting this from folks.

You should probably be able to track the changes without the track, no?

At least in this case … except for my couple stumbles it’s just the straight changes. Not really any subs or extensions or anything.

I wasn't suggesting that you weren't making the changes, I'm sure you are, but I think of outlining the changes as a technical rather than an improvisation exercise, you could use the continuous 8th note exercise for that but it's not its main purpose.

If I remember correctly, it was a long time ago, Joe Pass suggested you record yourself playing the chord changes (would have been on a cassette recorder back then), and practice playing continuous 8th notes over them, i.e., the point was to develop good sounding lines, not merely to outline the changes.

Outlining the changes with No Backing Track is more difficult. IMHO.

I'd say it's easier, without a backing track or metronome going, you're liable to vary your pace or pause as Peter did, which is contrary to the purpose of the exercise.

[pamosmusic]

I wasn't suggesting that you weren't making the changes, I'm sure you are, but I think of outlining the changes as a technical rather than an improvisation exercise, you could use the continuous 8th note exercise for that but it's not its main purpose.

If I remember correctly, it was a long time ago, Joe Pass suggested you record yourself playing the chord changes (would have been on a cassette recorder back then), and practice playing continuous 8th notes over them, i.e., the point was to develop good sounding lines, not merely to outline the changes.

interesting … I will say that if I want good sounding lines, I’m thinking more rhythmically and I probably wouldn’t go for an exercise like this.

I would agree that Making The Changes is more of a technical (in the colloquial sense rather than the way we usually use it) skill and would probably use this kind of exercise more often for that kind of thing.

[pamosmusic]

I'd say it's easier, without a backing track or metronome going, you're liable to vary your pace or pause as Peter did, which is contrary to the purpose of the exercise.

Well it depends on the purpose. If you’re working on time, then sure. And there I would opt for the metronome rather than the track. Or maybe drum genius.

If you’re working on making the changes then you’re doing so without the changes behind you to fill in the gaps. So it would ask more of you in that respect.

I’ll also note that you had … ahem … the occasional hiccup in your own recording, despite the backing track.

[Mick-7]

Or put more productively … Why is the backing track necessary?

For me — I don’t often use one for the same reason Tal cites above. In addition to which, I think focusing on melodic continuity ends up giving you more flexibility when you’re working on the changes, so focusing on what the lines sound like on their own. I would generally work on single phrases and play without the backing track than get through the whole tune at once with the track.

Not sure, would you do this with a tune you've never played before, seeing it for the first time?

I will say that if I want good sounding lines, I’m thinking more rhythmically and I probably wouldn’t go for an exercise like this.

One can still vary the rhythm of ones lines while playing 8th notes, "take a breath" between phrases, etc., its the exercise that should be "continuous" (don't stop playing), not the stream of notes.

[pamosmusic]

Not sure, would you do this with a tune you've never played before, seeing it for the first time?

All the time.

I actually just don’t use the continuous eighth note exercise much. Not that I don’t think it’s useful. I just tend to be eighth notey, so I usually do things that try to get me going other directions.

I had a friend who recommended doing the same exercise with quarters, quarter triplets, eighths, triplets, sixteenths, set combinations thereof, and preset rhythms. So that’s something I’ve done from time to time.

But yeah … when I’m learning a new tune I absolutely go sans backing track. What I’ll usually do is spend some time playing it in single octaves or in string sets and using only the most basic triads and improvise using that stuff. So I’m working on finding the most obvious and illustrative melodies through a tune in ways that by definition will never depart from the super basic harmony.

I kind of do that a lot with tunes I know pretty well too, but as I get more comfortable, I’ll start being more adventurous with the harmony too. But again rarely with backing tracks.

[Mick-7]

All the time.

I actually just don’t use the continuous eighth note exercise much. Not that I don’t think it’s useful. I just tend to be eighth notey, so I usually do things that try to get me going other directions.

I had a friend who recommended doing the same exercise with quarters, quarter triplets, eighths, triplets, sixteenths, set combinations thereof, and preset rhythms. So that’s something I’ve done from time to time.

But yeah … when I’m learning a new tune I absolutely go sans backing track. What I’ll usually do is spend some time playing it in single octaves or in string sets and using only the most basic triads and improvise using that stuff. So I’m working on finding the most obvious and illustrative melodies through a tune in ways that by definition will never depart from the super basic harmony.

I kind of do that a lot with tunes I know pretty well too, but as I get more comfortable, I’ll start being more adventurous with the harmony too. But again rarely with backing tracks.

But surely you'd play all the chords of the tune somewhere in that routine?

[pamosmusic]

But surely you'd play all the chords of the tune somewhere in that routine?

Just like … learning the chords? Working on comping through it?

[ragman1]

hmm, I don’t like the word ‘talent’, I absolutely don’t have it. (I used to know a professional cellist who definitely had it, from when she was about 6!).

More just getting somewhere through sheer bloody persistence for a few decades, in my case.

Oh, I think you're being a little disingenuous! Talent just means having a particular interest, flair, facility, aptitude for a certain thing. Obviously if you spent decades on jazz that speaks for itself. You also have an interest in photography, right? I've seen your photos, very nice. I mean, I bet you haven't even spent five minutes learning how to talk backwards ... you have or?

Saying ‘I was not chosen’ sounds suspiciously like an excuse, to me…

I have a definite ability for music, obviously, but I'm certainly not super-talented. Funnily enough, I'm rather glad of it too. Quite happy with a quiet life :-)

[pamosmusic]

One can still vary the rhythm of ones lines while playing 8th notes, "take a breath" between phrases, etc., its the exercise that should be "continuous" (don't stop playing), not the stream of notes.

wait wut?

[grahambop]

I interpret the exercise as continuous 8ths without stopping at all. Playing them with gaps wherever I feel like it is relatively easier for me, that’s basically how I play anyway!

The advantage of doing it 100% ‘continuous’ is that it soon reveals any specific places in the tune where I have a problem connecting the changes smoothly. Allowing gaps or quarter notes lets me skate round this too easily.

I tend to do it without a backing track, I can hear what I’m doing better (and it forces me to learn and hear the changes properly).

[grahambop]

One can still vary the rhythm of ones lines while playing 8th notes, "take a breath" between phrases, etc., its the exercise that should be "continuous" (don't stop playing), not the stream of notes.

huh? that just sounds like playing a typical solo to me.

I mean this tends to happen when I do the exercise, because I stumble here and there and have to stop briefly. But it’s not what I’m aiming for.

I believe Howard Roberts advocated this exercise too, but definitely without pauses.

[Mick-7]

One can still vary the rhythm of ones lines while playing 8th notes, "take a breath" between phrases, etc., its the exercise that should be "continuous" (don't stop playing), not the stream of notes.

huh? that just sounds like playing a typical solo to me. I mean this tends to happen when I do the exercise, because I stumble here and there and have to stop briefly. But it’s not what I’m aiming for.

I believe Howard Roberts advocated this exercise too, but definitely without pauses.

I just meant that it doesn't have to be "all notes all of the time," you don't have to play something on every beat. For example, you could "take a breath" in a measure that has only one chord in it. You'd be pausing for the sake of the phrasing, not because you're stumped or lost.

[pamosmusic]

I just meant that it doesn't have to be all notes all of the time, you don't have to play something on every beat. For example, you could "take a breath" in a measure that has only one chord in it. You'd be pausing for the sake of the phrasing, not because you're stumped or lost.

So what's the exercise again then?

I thought the "continuous" part meant that it needed to be continuous. Otherwise that's just like .... soloing.

[Mick-7]

So what's the exercise again then?

I thought the "continuous" part meant that it needed to be continuous. Otherwise that's just like .... soloing.

The point is to play lines that connect and flow over the chord changes, you don't necessarily have to play a never-ending stream of notes to do that.

But maybe I should have put a period, full stop, after "One can still vary the rhythm of ones lines while playing 8th notes."

[grahambop]

The point is to play lines that connect and flow over the chord changes, you don't necessarily have to play a never-ending stream of notes to do that.

ok so you mean playing across all the ‘joins’ between changes, but allowing a pause when in the middle of (say) 2 bars of Cmajor?

As an exercise I just find it more challenging and useful to try and keep going without exceptions.

Of course in an actual solo I would choose to vary it rhythmically, and also incorporate other approaches and phrasing ideas (e.g. motifs).