Approaches to Improvisation

[pamosmusic]

Alright I’m going to take this on a journey.

I don’t play a lot of scalar lines when I practice. I have done rather a lot of diatonic interval and arpeggio stuff, but I don’t play a lot of scalar stuff generally, and I might say very little stepwise scalar stuff.

So I’m going to go for the most purist form of this exercise that has been described here.

Pure eighth notes, stepwise chord scales.

We’re going to see what happens.

[grahambop]

These threads seem to devolve into people arguing about how the study group should be done rather than actually doing it. Lost of nits and picks. Thank you to those who actually attempted it.

I think we all got a bit confused by the fact that the term ‘continuous 8th notes’ did not in fact mean continuous 8th notes.

[Mick-7]

I don’t play a lot of scalar lines when I practice. I have done rather a lot of diatonic interval and arpeggio stuff, but I don’t play a lot of scalar stuff generally, and I might say very little stepwise scalar stuff.

Why is that?

[pamosmusic]

Why is that?

To hazard a guess, because I haven’t worked on it as much.

Is the result downstream of the preference, or the preference downstream of the result?

Dunno. But I do know one way to find out.

[Mick-7]

A couple of takes on Just Friends. Can't quite manage 100% continuous 8th notes at this tempo, but close.

Incidentally, this is the first recording I’ve made with the Ibanez AS93 semi-hollow I bought recently. I recorded it via the direct out on the DV Little Jazz.

That was pretty musical, unlike the other clips I've heard posted here. However you "cheated" (as I did) and did not play continuous 8th notes, you introduced some forbidden rhythmic variety in there. But this is precisely what makes the exercise challenging if you're doing it for the reason Joe Pass suggested: "by eliminating rhythmic variety, you force the ear into building better melodies."

It seems that most people here are using the exercise to be able to outline the chord changes better, which is fine, but making it musical too is a greater challenge.

[ragman1]

Well, admittedly the thread is called approaches to improv so maybe exercises have a place. If they work, that is. But everyone seems to be admitting freely that any benefits are somewhere in the distant future.

Since the object of playing this jazz music is actually to improvise, what happens in the meantime? And is there any guarantee that the player will stick at it for god knows how long? Or even if it'll have any real results?

Sorry, but this is what I've been sceptical about right from the start. It's so easy to go off into a delusion based on an unknown future, to sound so positive and interested here in writing, but actually it just fills up time and looks good but means very little. Like a lot of things in life.

For the record, I'll repeat what I said before. If you want to improvise, start to improvise. I'm not saying, and have never said, that research into the tune, trying it out, learning it, etc, isn't necessary. Of course it is! I do lots of it myself. To just blunder into something like this is just idiotic, obviously.

It's like a warm-up before a run. Yes, it's intelligent to warm up before but you don't spend more than a short time on it before you get going. Here it seems everybody is very busy warming up, or just talking about it, but who is actually running?

And, as those who do it will know, the actual running is nothing like the warming up for it. Different ball game altogether.

[pamosmusic]

That was pretty musical, unlike the other clips I've heard posted here.

Mick, unless your last name is Goodrick, you need to reevaluate your vibe and ask if you’re really in a position to talk down to the people who are volunteering their time and skill and putting themselves out there on a thread you started.

[Mick-7]

Mick, unless your last name is Goodrick, you really need to reevaluate your vibe and ask if you’re really in a position to talk down to the people who are volunteering their time and skill and putting themselves out there on a thread you started.

I apologize....

I meant to say that "most of the clips I've heard" have been less than musical, I had not listened to every single one. And that's not really a criticism because, as I said later on in the post from which you quoted, it's very difficult to play continuous 8th notes and make it sound musical. Until it gets there (which could take quite a while), it will probably sound like one is practicing an exercise = boring.

[BreckerFan]

Well, admittedly the thread is called approaches to improv so maybe exercises have a place. If they work, that is. But everyone seems to be admitting freely that any benefits are somewhere in the distant future.

Since the object of playing this jazz music is actually to improvise, what happens in the meantime? And is there any guarantee that the player will stick at it for god knows how long? Or even if it'll have any real results?

Sorry, but this is what I've been sceptical about right from the start. It's so easy to go off into a delusion based on an unknown future, to sound so positive and interested here in writing, but actually it just fills up time and looks good but means very little. Like a lot of things in life.

For the record, I'll repeat what I said before. If you want to improvise, start to improvise. I'm not saying, and have never said, that research into the tune, trying it out, learning it, etc, isn't necessary. Of course it is! I do lots of it myself. To just blunder into something like this is just idiotic, obviously.

It's like a warm-up before a run. Yes, it's intelligent to warm up before but you don't spend more than a short time on it before you get going. Here it seems everybody is very busy warming up, or just talking about it, but who is actually running?

And, as those who do it will know, the actual running is nothing like the warming up for it. Different ball game altogether.

I posted clips of both an excerise that I do (representative of 40+ similar that I've used for years) and a clip of me improvising. The excerises have produced many tangible benefits that have improved my improvisation.

Improvisation is different than written exercises, and requires additional skills beyond those that the exercise I posted work on, but that doesn't mean that exercises have no effect.

[pamosmusic]

I apologize....

I meant to say that "most of the clips I've heard" have been less than musical, I had not listened to every single one. And that's not really a criticism because, as I said, it's very difficult to play continuous 8th notes and make it sound musical. Until it gets there (which could take quite a while), it will probably sound like one is practicing an exercise = boring.

Mick you have to see how this is the same thing you just said. Yours aren’t musical either, which makes it weird that you’re offering this feedback.

[ragman1]

I posted clips of both an excerise that I do (representative of 40+ similar that I've used for years) and a clip of me improvising. The excerises have produced many tangible benefits that have improved my improvisation.

Improvisation is different than written exercises, and requires additional skills beyond those that the exercise I posted work on, but that doesn't mean that exercises have no effect.

BreckerFan, I'm not really talking to people who can obviously do it. Graham is a superb player and your faster-than-the-speed-of-light clip was more than impressive.

I'm quite sure that those who have reached a certain level of proficiency can use those exercises to good effect. If the basic essential skills are there then they'll undoubtedly have a beneficial effect. I think you know what I'm saying. At least, you should.

By the way, do you gig? I'm sure you do.

[pamosmusic]

I posted clips of both an excerise that I do (representative of 40+ similar that I've used for years) and a clip of me improvising. The excerises have produced many tangible benefits that have improved my improvisation.

Improvisation is different than written exercises, and requires additional skills beyond those that the exercise I posted work on, but that doesn't mean that exercises have no effect.

Yeah, last time I posted myself playing at a session, ragman insulted the piano players appearance.

Sooooo

[pamosmusic]

BreckerFan, I'm not really talking to people who can obviously do it. Graham is a superb player and your faster-than-the-speed-of-light clip was more than impressive.

I'm quite sure that those who have reached a certain level of proficiency can use those exercises to good effect. If the basic essential skills are there then they'll undoubtedly have a beneficial effect. I think you know what I'm saying. At least, you should.

By the way, do you gig? I'm sure you do.

Hey here’s a thought. Maybe you should trust people who have reached a certain level of proficiency when they tell you how they did it.

[James W]

Well, admittedly the thread is called approaches to improv so maybe exercises have a place. If they work, that is. But everyone seems to be admitting freely that any benefits are somewhere in the distant future.

Since the object of playing this jazz music is actually to improvise, what happens in the meantime? And is there any guarantee that the player will stick at it for god knows how long? Or even if it'll have any real results?

Sorry, but this is what I've been sceptical about right from the start. It's so easy to go off into a delusion based on an unknown future, to sound so positive and interested here in writing, but actually it just fills up time and looks good but means very little. Like a lot of things in life.

For the record, I'll repeat what I said before. If you want to improvise, start to improvise. I'm not saying, and have never said, that research into the tune, trying it out, learning it, etc, isn't necessary. Of course it is! I do lots of it myself. To just blunder into something like this is just idiotic, obviously.

It's like a warm-up before a run. Yes, it's intelligent to warm up before but you don't spend more than a short time on it before you get going. Here it seems everybody is very busy warming up, or just talking about it, but who is actually running?

And, as those who do it will know, the actual running is nothing like the warming up for it. Different ball game altogether.

Do you write this having exhaustively practised the exercises in this thread? Do you write from experience? Or just being snide?

FWIW I think the benefits of the continuous eighth note exercise are immediate and tangible. And I think Graham had positive things to say about it too - not that its benefits were felt at some point in the future, and even if they were, that's still a positive in my book, don't you think?

[ragman1]

Yeah, last time I posted myself playing at a session, ragman insulted the piano players appearance.

Sooooo

I'll correct that one. I criticised the fact that the piano player, quite an old guy with grey hair, was not playing in a modern style and you were interposing extremely modern 'out' lines over it which clashed with what he was doing. I did not insult him. I criticised you, as I recall.

That thread and vid may still be available.

[BreckerFan]

BreckerFan, I'm not really talking to people who can obviously do it. Graham is a superb player and your faster-than-the-speed-of-light clip was more than impressive.

I'm quite sure that those who have reached a certain level of proficiency can use those exercises to good effect. If the basic essential skills are there then they'll undoubtedly have a beneficial effect. I think you know what I'm saying. At least, you should.

By the way, do you gig? I'm sure you do.

Well thank you for the compliment, but I have to confess I don't know what you're saying.

What I'm saying is that exercises like what I posted, or like the continuous 8ths exercise, are good ways to build the basic skills, and are in fact things I've used to develop aspects of my playing. Written exercises, especially when you write them yourself, are great ways to develop vocabulary and technique. The continuous 8ths exercise is good to learn how to apply that vocabulary in real time.

Of course seeing the benefits of exercises will take time. Doing anything difficult takes time, and playing like Wes or Benson or Joe Pass or Adam Rogers is difficult.

Exercises are also not the *only* thing one should practice. I would never advise anyone to work solely on exercises and not practice improvising. But it's entirely possible to work on both.

And I've had a handful of gigs. Looking to get a trio together in the near future.

[Mick-7]

Mick you have to see how this is the same thing you just said. Yours aren’t musical either, which makes it weird that you’re offering this feedback.

I'm honestly not sure what your definition of musical is, were your guide tone illustration clips "musical"?

[ragman1]

Exercises are also not the *only* thing one should practice. I would never advise anyone to work solely on exercises and not practice improvising. But it's entirely possible to work on both.

That's all I'm saying. Do both.

And I've had a handful of gigs. Looking to get a trio together in the near future.

Excellent. Looking forward to your CD :-)

[pamosmusic]

I'll correct that one. I criticised the fact that the piano player, quite an old guy with grey hair, was not playing in a modern style and you were interposing extremely modern 'out' lines over it which clashed with what he was doing. I did not insult him. I criticised you, as I recall.

That thread and vid may still be available.

I’ll let that one stand on its own. And yes both videos are still up. Not to mention that you’re incorrect on literally everything you said, down to the probability that he’s significantly younger than you are.

[James W]

That's all I'm saying. Do both.

.... So, we can expect to hear you do the continuous eighth note exercise?

[ragman1]

Do you write this having exhaustively practised the exercises in this thread?

Don't be ridiculous.

Do you write from experience?

Yes.

Or just being snide?

I'm never snide. But I get a lot of snide replies.

[ragman1]

.... So, we can expect to hear you do the continuous eighth note exercise?

Nope. You obviously don't read what I write. Mind you, some of the posts are quite long.

[pamosmusic]

I'm honestly not sure what your definition of musical is, were your guide tone illustration clips "musical"?

Hey Mick. Don’t think I ever said they were.

But more to the point - Did I hop on here and say that all the people posting were unmusical? Did I correct that by saying that only most of them were?

No?

Youre the one who should probably be clarifying your definition. Or just being more gracious and open in the way you speak to people.

[James W]

Don't be ridiculous.



Yes.



I'm never snide. But I get a lot of snide replies.

So let me get this straight, you haven't exhaustively practised the exercises but you do speak from experience about how exercises are like warming up for running.

I'm glad that's clarified.

[James W]

Nope. You obviously don't read what I write. Mind you, some of the posts are quite long.

You replied to Breckerfan that people should do both improv exercises and improv itself.

So is this one of those do as I say, not as I do, things?