Can someone explain pentatonic modes?

[ragman1]

Oh, you've added your videos. Thanks!

I see what you mean, they sound quite nice, don't they? I don't see why they couldn't be introduced into blues playing. Not every tune is a 3-chord stomp.

This post is enlightening:

Can someone explain pentatonic modes?

Your English is good, by the way, where did you get that?

[frabarmus]

Your English is good, by the way, where did you get that?

My mother's grandmother was American (of Irish descent), so some English trickled down in the family, and I've lived 4 years (1976-1980) in the Midlands of England!!

Got O Levels and A Levels, that was so long ago!

Now my English is, obviously, not as good as it used to be, still ok (I've got a good chance to practice it here). :-)

[frabarmus]

This post is enlightening:

Can someone explain pentatonic modes?

Glad you found it interesting. That was actually only part of the conversation i had with IA. Here's where it deals with pentatonic modes AND the Blues!

Why the “second mode” feels especially primordial

The D–E–G–A–C collection lacks the major/minor third polarity that dominates European harmony.
Instead it emphasizes:

• open fourths and fifths,
• suspended sonorities,
• drone compatibility,
• cyclical melodic motion.

Those traits are often associated with:

• pre-functional harmony,
• oral traditions,
• rhythm-centered music,
• modal rather than chordal thinking.

In other words, it sounds “older” to ears trained in Western tonal harmony because it predates the European obsession with tonic/dominant function.

---

Mali and the blues connection

This is especially important historically.
Many scholars and musicians have pointed out strong connections between:

• Malian pentatonic traditions,
• Sahel musical practices,
• and the melodic language of the blues.

Artists like:

• Ali Farka Touré
• Boubacar Traoré
• Tinariwen

often use scales and melodic gestures that Western listeners perceive as “blues-like,” even though historically the influence may partly run the other way: blues inherited important features from West African musical systems through the Atlantic slave trade.
The suspended pentatonic mode you mention is part of that sound world.

---

Is it literally the oldest scale?

There’s no way to verify that historically.
We have:

• prehistoric flutes,
• speculative reconstructions,
• comparative ethnomusicology,
• ancient tuning theories,

but no recordings from prehistory.
What scholars can argue is that:

• anhemitonic pentatonic scales are cognitively and acoustically simple,
• they are globally widespread,
• and they may emerge very early in musical development.

Some researchers even note that children spontaneously improvise melodies close to pentatonic collections before learning culturally specific scales.
So while calling it “the oldest scale” is more poetic than scientific, the underlying intuition — that these scales are extremely ancient and fundamental to human music-making — is well grounded.

---

An interesting twist

From a Western classical perspective, the “major” and “minor” pentatonics seem primary because they align with triadic harmony.
Globally, though, suspended pentatonic modes like:

• D E G A C
• G A C D E

may actually be closer to how humans used pentatonic pitch organization before functional harmony existed.
So in a historical sense, the “less common” pentatonic modes may actually preserve older musical thinking than the familiar major pentatonic does.

[frabarmus]

The intro uses a regular major scale (Ionian), you can clearly hear the second mode of the major pentatonic starting at 0:34

(Song by Ali Farka Touré)

[frabarmus]

Some more Malian pentatonic grooves (with the addition of Bela Fleck's banjo).

[Christian Miller]

This might be of interest

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[joe2758]

Here's the Joe2758 Wisconsin scale:

G Ab B Db F#

[ragman1]

Now my English is, obviously, not as good as it used to be, still ok (I've got a good chance to practice it here). :-)

It's pretty good, believe me. I thought at first you were just living in Italy till I saw what you looked like. No mistaking that :-)

The music stuff will have to wait a while till I've gone through it. Thanks for posting.

[Mick-7]

Below are the primary pentatonic scales in Bergonzi's pentatonics book - there's also a pentatonic whole tone scale but I don't see the point of it since the whole tone scale only has 6 notes to begin with. My notation "(JB = )" is what he named the scales, he associates them with specific chords, e.g., m7b5, major b6 (= harmonic major), and major b2nd (= 5th mode of harmonic major).

The last scale with the asterick is one I like, not in his book... correction, it is in it, it's the second scale listed in the "other scales" in Chapter 12.

I presume that since Bergonzi wrote a book about pentatonic scales, you can hear them in his playing? I haven't heard much of his work.

[joe2758]

One thing that is interesting is the major and minor pentatonics are such that they fit over any major/minor mode respectively:

Because in the major there is no 4th or 7th they could be major, lydian, or mixo

Because there is no 2nd or 6th, they can fit over minor, phrygian or dorian

[joe2758]

it would also be interesting to make pentatonic scales with just the distinguishing factors. I think you could spell out a mode with 4 notes actually

major would be 1 3 4 7
lydian 1 3 #4 7
mixo 1 3 4 b7

they all have the same 2, 5, and six so they can be omitted

[Mick-7]

it would also be interesting to make pentatonic scales with just the distinguishing factors. I think you could spell out a mode with 4 notes actually

major would be 1 3 4 7
lydian 1 3 #4 7
mixo 1 3 4 b7

Yes, Bergonzi's first book in the series, "Melodic Structures," is about using 4 note cells, and his pentatonics book appears to be an extension of that. But a distinguishing feature missing from your examples is the b2nd interval included in some pentatonic scales, which gives you nondiatonic tones like b9th & b6th.

[frabarmus]

This might be of interest

The Bati Mixolydian scale (1 3 4 5 b7) is another one I particularly like and have been working with, eccept I knew it as the "Jog scale" (an Indian scale). It sounds particularly good when harmonised.

[joe2758]

Yes, Bergonzi's first book in the series, "Melodic Structures," is about using 4 note cells, and his pentatonics book appears to be an extension of that. But a distinguishing feature missing from your examples is the b2nd interval included in some pentatonic scales, which gives you nondiatonic tones like b9th & b6th.

right, so those would apply only for the minor because there isn't b9 or b6 in the regular major scale modes. So the minors would be

minor- 1 2 b3 b6
phryguan- 1 b2 b3 b6
dorian- 1 2 b3 6

only thing missing is locrian to which I'll just say it's diminished

[joe2758]

Just add a 5th to any of those 4 note scales if you want a pentatonic

edit: well I guess technically the minor ones require the 5ths to distinguish phrygian from locrian

[Mick-7]

The Bati Mixolydian scale (1 3 4 5 b7) is another one I particularly like and have been working with, eccept I knew it as the "Jog scale" (an Indian scale). It sounds particularly good when harmonized.

I know that as the Javanese pelog scale, which is a major scale pentatonic, in F = F-G-Bb-C-E, although I think that E is its tonic note.

[Mick-7]

right, so those would apply only for the minor because there isn't b9 or b6 in the regular major scale modes. So the minors would be

minor- 1 2 b3 b6
phryguan- 1 b2 b3 b6
dorian- 1 2 b3 6

only thing missing is locrian to which I'll just say it's diminished

Actually, the b6th (= #5th) is the most common "altered" scale tone substitution or addition to the major scale, common in bebop - it's in one of Barry Harris' scales. And Mingus was known to add a b9th to his maj.7 chords.

1-b3-b5-b7 could be your locrian 4 note scale - A-C-Eb-G, which is also Bb major/Eb lydian.

[Mick-7]

Here's the Joe2758 Wisconsin scale:

G Ab B Db F#

What is that, the aural equivalent of extra-sharp Wisconsin cheddar cheese?

[joe2758]

Hmm I think you misunderstand me. This is just a theoretical idea.

I have C as the tonic of my scale. this could be any mode of C given no other information.

If i have C E i now know it is one of the major modes

If I have C E F I know it is not lydian

If I have C E F B I know it has to be major.

If I have C Eb I know it's minor etc

I mentioned locrian because because 5 notes would be necessary for minor modes but only 4 for major

This has no practical application to me, I gave practical answer to the op very early on in the thread haha

[joe2758]

What is that, the aural equivalent of extra-sharp Wisconsin cheddar cheese?

sounds pretty stinky tbh hahaha

[Mick-7]

sounds pretty stinky tbh hahaha

You'd best change the name then, Wisconsin is not known for stinky cheeses.

[joe2758]

You'd best change the name then, Wisconsin is not known for stinky cheeses.

The Wisconsin Gym-sock scale. does anyone know how to make a wikipedia page?

[wolflen]

This might be of interest

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Liked the Green Dolphn Street take..

some very cool sounds

I think it would take alot of study and time to digest this stuff and apply it into "western" applications

[DawgBone]

I'm gonna call these Dawgbone's mostly chromatic blues scales. You will probably get a good laugh, but i wrote out the fingerings for the reason that it gives you an idea of the how and why, which is, with these and a couple other maj/min penta-blues patterns i can move smoothly between standard scale pattern without making odd reaches i.e I'm well leveraged when I arrive into the standard pattern I'm shooting towards.

Granted, there are plenty of passing tones and added color notes but the grouping of threes give me a smooth triplet (i think) feel over 12/8 slow blues and 4/4 funk blues. Hoping this makes some sense.

[Mick-7]

I'm gonna call these Dawgbone's mostly chromatic blues scales.

I think you can leave the word "mostly" out of that name.

I've heard this one before, DB, but I just can't place it... I'm thinkin' either Blind Blake or Blind Willie McTell - but definitely not Blind Lemon Jefferson, it's not his style.