Can someone explain pentatonic modes?

[DawgBone]

I've spent the last year and a half working on the mixing of major and minor pentatonic scales over standard I IV V blues changes. I've been looking for some additional soloing options and every time I hear someone using stuff outside pentatonics and chord tones in a blues setting it strikes me as either too jazzy for my sound or like someone just trying to sound too clever. I stumbled across some of the "pentatonic modes" but can't find any good explanation of how it's meant to work. Not even sure if it's what I'm looking for but I'd try it.

I understand they begin on the different scale degrees but I really don't get how I'm supposed to apply them over standard blues changes.

[joe2758]

over G7 you already know G blues scale is blues, major (country) play E blues scale

In the same way if you play A blues scale you will get a jazzy sound ( but not fancy)

I don't know if this matches the term, but it works over standard blues.

[frabarmus]

[DawgBone]

Not really catching what's happening here, or maybe I am....

So if I'm in the key of A and the second scale tone is C, so I begin on that and follow with D, E, G, and finally A? Is that right?

[Mick-7]

I stumbled across some of the "pentatonic modes" but can't find any good explanation of how it's meant to work. Not even sure if it's what I'm looking for but I'd try it. I understand they begin on the different scale degrees but I really don't get how I'm supposed to apply them over standard blues changes.

There are a lot of pentatonic scales, DB, it's a matter of how far into the weeds you want to go with it -- Slonimsky Curiosities

If you mean just the common pentatonic scale, you don't need to be concerned with modes, just improvise with it as you would a regular major or minor scale.

C Major Pentatonic: C, D, E, G, A
A Minor Pentatonic: A, C, D, E, G
Blues scale: A, C, D, Eb, E, G (= minor pentatonic scale with b5 added)

[joe2758]

Not really catching what's happening here, or maybe I am....

So if I'm in the key of A and the second scale tone is C, so I begin on that and follow with D, E, G, and finally A? Is that right?

Not sure if you mean what I said or those videos

For what I was talking about, for Blues in A the scale would be

E G A Bb B D. You can play the same licks you'd play with your A pent/blues scale but just play them in E.

Think "playing E blues over an A blues"

[Mick-7]

Not sure if you mean what I said or those videos

For what I was talking about, for Blues in A the scale would be

E G A Bb B D. You can play the same licks you'd play with your A pent/blues scale but just play them in E.

Think "playing E blues over an A blues"

Except the blues scale is a hexatonic scale -- Slonimsky Curiosities

[joe2758]

Except the blues scale is a hexatonic scale -- Slonimsky Curiosities

ok, E pentatonic lol get a life

[Mick-7]

ok, E pentatonic lol get a life

Sorry, I was thinking that would sound anal when I wrote it, but the lesson is that you can spice up a pentatonic scale by adding a chromatic note to it.

For example:

1) A minor pentatonic: A, C, D, E, G
1a) A, C, D, (Eb), E, G
1b) A, C, (C#), D, E, G
1c) A, C, D, E, G, (G#)

[Aiq]

How about:

C M Pent
C D E G A
M1
D E G A C
M2
E G A C D

Etc.

[joe2758]

C Major Pentatonic: C, D, E, G, A
A Minor Pentatonic: A, C, D, E, G

This is in line with the actual meaning of modes, so this answers part of the question for sure.

In order to change the sound of what you are actually playing over an A7

you'd play
ACDEG
and/or ABC#EF#

I figured that is what he meant bu "mixing major and minor"

so, parallel vs relative basically

and then my E pent over A would fall under "substitution" i guess

[DawgBone]

I'm getting confused here by the multiple responses.....

When I play a blues over an A7 dom, I use A minor pentatonic and A major pentatonic scales, with the major shapes using the same fingering as an F# minor pentatonic. I'm looking for "pentatonic mode" options beyond the penta major and minor that will still keep me in the blues ball park.

Maybe I'm slow, forgive me.

[frabarmus]

The five modes of the major pentatonic scale (all starting from C so you can hear how each one really sounds on its own)


Mode 1 (in C) C D E G A (major pentatonic) fits over a 6/9 chord


Mode 2 (in C) C D F G Bb fits over sus4 and min11 chords


Mode 3 (in C) C Eb F Ab Bb has an aeolian sonority (min7/b6)


Mode 4 (in C) C D F G A 13 sus4 sonority


Mode 5 (in C) C Eb F G Bb (minor pentatonic) for min7 and blues sonorities

[joe2758]

To sum up everything I said, can't speak for anyone else

Over A7
A minor pentatonic (optional b5) is bluesy
A major pentatonic (optional b3) is
country
E minor pentatonic (optional b5) is jazzy

[DawgBone]

The five modes of the major pentatonic scale (all starting from C so you can hear how each one really sounds on its own)


Mode 1 C D E G A (major pentatonic)


Mode 2 C D F G Bb


Mode 3 C Eb F Ab Bb


Mode 4 C D F G A


Mode 5 C Eb F G Bb (minor pentatonic)

Ok, thank you. I'm gonna go give this a shot and I'll check back in if I have questions.

[frabarmus]

Ok, thank you. I'm gonna go give this a shot and I'll check back in if I have questions.

I've modified my post (#13) adding the chord sonorities each of the five modes suites

[DawgBone]

Well....

At first play through I'm not so encouraged by the sounds but I also realized I am already utilizing many of these notes as passing tones or chord color/extension notes within the usual major/minor pentatonics and blues scale. Not sure how this will play out. I'll fool with it some more this evening.

[Bob_Ross]

Over A7
A minor pentatonic (optional b5) is bluesy
A major pentatonic (optional b3) is
country
E minor pentatonic (optional b5) is jazzy

Bb minor pentatonic is what'll get you noticed by serious jazz fans...or fired by the bandleader.

[ragman1]

Dawg, you've got to experiment. You know what a mode is as well as anyone. Doesn't matter what they're called. Play your chord and play the usual pentatonic in your usual way. Then start again with one of the modes. Record it, see what it does. Experiment till you find out whether it's all a good idea or not.

You may find it's all much of a muchness in any case. You don't always start on the root of the scales you use now. In fact, god forbid.

From my view, playing only pentatonics limits the palette. They definitely have their place and give the right sounds, etc, but there's surely more to life than 5-note scales. But be warned, the more you add to that basic sound the more jazzy and complex it gets and you may find you've drifted away from that nice raw blues sound you value so much.

[DawgBone]

Dawg, you've got to experiment. You know what a mode is as well as anyone. Doesn't matter what they're called. Play your chord and play the usual pentatonic in your usual way. Then start again with one of the modes. Record it, see what it does. Experiment till you find out whether it's all a good idea or not.

You may find it's all much of a muchness in any case. You don't always start on the root of the scales you use now. In fact, god forbid.

From my view, playing only pentatonics is limiting your palette. They definitely have their place and give the right sounds, etc, but there's surely more to life than 5-note scales. But be warned, the more you add to that basic sound the more jazzy and complex it gets and you may find you've drifted away from that nice raw blues sound you value so much.

Yeah definitely. Just looking at some other raw materials to do the experimentin' with.

I don't really know much about modes. I should probably fool with some mixolydian more and a friend of mine plays some great sounding non-blues stuff using lydian. There is Dorian but I find myself preferring major over minor sounds for the most part. I can mix up the major and minor pentatonic at will, and with a good deal of the smooth flowing sound I was after using chord and passing tones. Then I started making the changes more aggressively rather than just sticking to the tonic scale patterns. I definitely don't want to drift away from the raw blues sound, I just want to do my due diligence lest I get stale.

I had to take a couple days with only an hour or two invested cause I been doing 4-5 hour days 7 days a week since March preparing for some festival shows next month but I was starting to burn out. I felt much better this morning....

[ragman1]

I've no idea at all about pentatonic modes from a 5-note scale. Like Am pent over A7 is the blues sound so what will it sound like if I play E G A C D instead?

Weird, probably. Or exactly the same :-)

[joe2758]

I've no idea at all about pentatonic modes from a 5-note scale. Like Am pent over A7 is the blues sound so what will it sound like if I play E G A C D instead?

Weird, probably :-)

it would sound like the same thing?

[ragman1]

Just beat me to it. I just put that in. See edit :-)

That's just it, it's the same notes. In any case you have to play the notes that fit the chord. Silly to start on the wrong set and sound wrong. So it comes back to what the usual thing is.

Best get hold of every Robben Ford lesson vid you can and get it from the man

I know he adds the 6th to his pentatonic runs and uses altered scales. Stuff like that.

[starjasmine]

Bb minor pentatonic is what'll get you noticed by serious jazz fans...or fired by the bandleader.

And the easy way to do that is by "side slipping" - literally sliding up a fret from the pentatonic scale you are already using. I like this demonsration because it's really short - less than one minute!

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6JQc0...?feature=share

He doesn't show it in this vid, but you can also side slip DOWN a fret; e.g. play Ab blues scale against an A major chord to get the sound of Ama9 with color tones:
Ab blues scale == Ab Cb Db Dnat Eb Gb
enharmonically == G# B Db D Eb F#
against A maj == ma7 ma9 4 bluenote 6

- We could argue all day long about whether 4, #4 and 6 are actually 11, #11, and 13 (and on this forum, people probably will!) but the practical approach is that "it depends on how you use them - let your ear be your guide."
- This is not always going to work for blues that emphasizes the b7, but in cases where you want a jazzier sound without a lot of mental gymnastics, it's another trick to have in your bag.

[frabarmus]

Go straight to 39:00 for pentatonic scales