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(for modern jazz phrasing, mixing pentatonics with bebop language)
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05-24-2026 03:37 AM
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Those are not modes, they are pentatonic scales derived from a major scale and it's parallel minor scale, i.e., C major and C natural minor (or C major and Eb major). It's not clear to me why you chose those particular scale tones.
Originally Posted by frabarmus
Modes have the same notes as the scales from which they come, e.g., D dorian , E phrygian, F lydian, G mixolydian, etc., have the same notes as the C major scale.
Here are the five major pentatonic scales, they can be fingered in various ways.
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In my book they are modes, eccept they're transposed in C for the purpose of hearing each mode's distinct character (on a C pedal point). Whereas if played "consecutively" (C first mode/major pent., D second mode; E third mode; G fourth mode; A fifth mode/minor pentatonic) they would all sound major pentatonic, just starting from different scale degrees of the major pentatonic scale. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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I've edited my post #13 once more so it's more clear.
Originally Posted by frabarmus
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Try E minor pent on A7 Originally Posted by DawgBone
Or E minor pent on Cmaj7
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Well yes, but that's what a mode is, the same scale but starting from different scale tones in it. I don't know what your arrangement of scales would be called but they're not modes. Originally Posted by frabarmus
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Well yes, however take for example a modal tune like So What: D dorian, then Eb dorian, then again D dorian. I wouldn't go as far as considering it based on C major and Db major, starting on the second degree of the latter scales (unless I want to "split hairs"). :-)
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The dorian mode isn't really 'based on' the major scale, it's a specific set of notes derived from, or extracted from, the major scale to form a separate scale or 'mode' with its own identity and flavor. Originally Posted by frabarmus
It would be as wrong to call D dorian C major as it would be to call C major D dorian. They are not the same things, although it may help players to think in those terms when learning. After a while it's possible to make a clear distinction between a mode and its parent scale.
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Ok Mick, I stand corrected, I think I see what you mean. Here's my third edit of my post #13. I think you'll agree that, in this chart, they are the five modes of the major pentatonic scale. Originally Posted by Mick-7
The five modes of the major pentatonic scale (all starting from C so you can hear how each one really sounds on its own)
Mode 1 C D E G A (C major pentatonic) fits over a 6/9 chord
Mode 2 of Bb major pentatonic: C D F G Bb fits over sus4 and min11 chords
Mode 3 of Ab major pentatonic: C Eb F Ab Bb has an aeolian sonority (min7/b6)
Mode 4 of F major pentatonic: C D F G A 13 sus4 sonority
Mode 5 of Eb major pentatonic: C Eb F G Bb (C minor pentatonic) for min7 and blues sonorities
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Hmm, I see what you're doing but it's novel theory. What do you see as the advantage of ordering the scales in that way? I think you said you got the idea from McCoy Tyner? Originally Posted by frabarmus
If you hadn't called them "modes" I would've thought you were playing C major and C minor pentatonic scales.
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Semantics.... the modes of a major scale have the same notes and chords as that scale, but in a different order, actually the same order but in a different sequence. Originally Posted by ragman1
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But they don't fulfil the same function. Dm in the middle of a standard is one thing, as the tonic in So What is another. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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My source for pentatonic scales is Pentatonic Scales for Jazz Improvisation by Ramon Ricker, published in 1976 (great book BTW). Originally Posted by Mick-7
On page 47 of that book these exact same scales (all starting on C) are labled as modes. Literally: "mode I, mode II, mode III, mode IV and mode V.
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They could be considered modes of the pentatonic scales you named, but they're also modes of other pentatonic scales, and more importantly, they are not harmonically related. Originally Posted by frabarmus
For example, I could call this the 2nd mode of a Bb major pentatonic scale, the 3rd mode of a Gm pentatonic scale, the 4th mode of a F major pentatonic scale, or the 5th mode of a D minor pentatonic scale: C-D-F-G-Bb. I don't think it makes sense to apply modal theory to pentatonic scales.
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frabarmus, Mick -
It does seem as though I've sort of intruded myself into your conversation and come between two dogs and their bone!
But, as we're here, may I ask something? Is frabarmus trying to explain something to Mick or is it the other way round, that Mick is trying to explain something to frabarmus?
I usually find that clarifying the initial question goes most of the way to solving it. What's the basic problem or issue here?
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Not to make a fuss.
I would like to suggest the book by Jerry Bergonzi vol.2 'Pentatonics'.
This is one of the most interesting books on the problem of pentatonic scales.
The material is very organized and legible.
There is a simple and clear nomenclature.
This is a brilliant methodological book with the addition of a CD / backing tracks/.
Jerry Bergonzi is an outstanding saxophonist, and his powerful theoretical and practical knowledge is really worth taking advantage of.
Ps.
There are not "modes"-there are no such names.
Perhaps in other books the authors use such names, but they have nothing to do with traditional modes.
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So that is one of 6 volumes on improvisation that he wrote -- Jerry Bergonzi Books - Amazon.com Originally Posted by kris
I found it interesting that Jerry Hahn's blues scales include bent notes, below are the audio samples from his method book ( Complete Jerry Hahn Method for Jazz Guitar )
Blues Scales and Patterns - Jerry Hahn - Box.com
I guess if my name was Jerry, pentatonics would be child's play for me?
I buried the bone earlier today, modal bones are not pretty. Originally Posted by ragman1
We were chewing on the wrong bone, DawgBone's bone is pentatonic, best to listen to those who make good sounding lines with it. Originally Posted by ragman1
Last edited by Mick-7; 05-25-2026 at 01:32 AM.
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Ragman, no problem at all, just different views I suppose. Which ever way one chooses to name these scales or which ever angle one may want to look at them from, they are ment to be played and "tasted". I simply shared with DawgBone my two cents while trying to answer the thread-title, based on my (trustworthy) Ramon Ricker source. Originally Posted by ragman1
As far as I'm concerned, I don't mind at all sometimes treating these scales as "modal tools" (or "ragas"?) aswell, exploring how they sound over a long pedal point or sustained chord (just as I do with regular Major scale or Jazz melodic minor scale modes) ; It's part of my study-routine. I like experimenting with pentatonics and their "incomplete", angular, "primitive" nature, which can also make them sound unpredictable and contemporary (as in McCoy Tyner). Mick has got, no doubt, a deeper knowledge of theory than I have, and that's ok by me.
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FWIW, I think you're entirely correct. You have a scale, and you can construct the modes by starting on each of the notes in turn. C major to D dorian, etc. But you can just as easily think of taking each of these modes and transposing back to the original starting note, C, in which case you have all the modes of C, which is just what you said at the outset. Originally Posted by frabarmus
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So what was the original or initial question about which you both have these different views? It's eluding me. Originally Posted by frabarmus
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The Internet is such a phenomenon that sometimes you don't know what it's about and there is no answer to the question - what is it about?
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They must have been discussing something! ...or maybe not :-)
Anyway, it doesn't really matter. This is Dawgbone's thread and it's what he's learned, or not learned, from it that matters. That Scofield video on page 1 was pretty good on pentatonics.
But I don't think you should use pentatonics all the time.
Can someone explain pentatonic modes?
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DawgBone: “Can someone explain pentatonic modes?” Originally Posted by ragman1
Mick: “you don't need to be concerned with modes, just improvise with it as you would a regular major or minor scale.“
frabarmus: “Here's my take on pentatonic modes” (shows a table of the pentatonic modes, all starting on C)
DawgBone: “Ok,thank you. I'm gonna go give this a shot and I'll check back in if I have questions. “ Problem solved(maybe), hope so, at least to some extent.
Mick: “Those are not modes, they are pentatonic scales derived from a major scale and it's parallel minor scale, i.e., C major and C natural minor (or C major and Eb major). It's not clear to me why you chose those particular scale tones. “
frabarmus: “In my book they are modes, eccept they're transposed in C for the purpose of hearing each mode's distinct character (on a C pedalpoint). Whereas if played "consecutively" (C firstmode/major pent., D second mode; E third mode; G fourth mode; A fifthmode/minor pentatonic) they would all sound major pentatonic, just starting from different scale degrees of the major pentatonic scale.“
Mick: “Idon't know what your arrangement of scales would be called butthey're not modes. Ifyou hadn't called them "modes" I would've thought you wereplaying C major and C minor pentatonic scales. I don't think it makes sense to apply modal theory to pentatonic scales."
Etc.
That's all there is to it as I see it. Yeah, what's all the fuss about? Not a problem or fighting over a bone... just aswering DawgBone's question turned into a music theory disquisition., I guess... whell, why not, afterall? This is quite typical of JGO :-)
P.S. Applying modal theory to pentatonic scales has been done anyway by an illustrious figure such as Ramon Ricker, and can be appealing to at least some people, from a musical/esthetic standpoint, if not a theoric one.Last edited by frabarmus; 05-25-2026 at 08:37 AM.
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Thanks to everyone for the input and the links. Originally Posted by Mick-7
I found a pdf of the book Kris mentioned here:
https://www.saxonline.it/wordpress/w...entatonics.pdf
I plan on adding some of the ideas I've come up with here, which might help you guys help me and perhaps yourselves also. I've just got some band obligations today so I'll be getting to it this week.
A long time ago I was given "3 note per string" minor pentatonic/blues scales which I learned but truth be told I found mostly worthless. Worthless because the stretches were too big on some strings, which puts you at a physical disadvantage for bends and other idiomatic playing. Also worthless because they generally terminated in areas not very conducive to playing the changes with a smooth feel. The only upside I found to them is that they did let you traverse the neck in a diagonal fashion, rather than just boxes within the same region of the neck.
Net result I was stuck with the usual boxes for the next 30 years, which is a cage that I see most blues guys stuck in. The past two years I have poured two or three thousand man hours into blending major and minor pentatonics and blues scales better, bolstered by chord tones, color tones, and passing tones, making it work pretty seamlessly and am beginning to hit it's logical conclusion so I need to start looking for some additional options, hence the thread. Granted, what I've come up with is mostly designed to work over what amounts to major blues, I IV V, less so with minor blues, as I am not as enthusiastic about minor blues, and I'm not good with sticking to things I'm not enthusiastic about which is why I quit school...
Catch you soon.
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