Can someone explain pentatonic modes?

[supersoul]

Standard disclaimer that I don't play a lot of pure blues...

but I notice that I will go back and forth between major and minor pentatonic on a dom 7th chord. Not a hybrid scale made up of both, but playing something in the minor pentatonic, then slipping into a major pentatonic lick for a couple beats, then back. Especially that minor/major third, but also the major6th/flat seventh. Using the two colors to help with the story.

With the blues it doesn't sound good to be too complicated and fancy pants. Pentatonics sound cool because they're simple, and going back and forth between the major and minor pentatonics keeps the simplicity while giving a bit of contrast.

[kris]

Pentatonics are cool, but it's just one of the means of jazz or blues.
The great master of playing petatonic in improvisation was McCoy Tyner.
Perhaps it would be advisable to analyze his musical language, which he uses pentatonic when playing jazz standards.
He plays pentatonic notes at crazy tempos, creating a specific tension.

How to Use the Pentatonic Scale like McCoy Tyner in Your Solos • Jazzadvice

[DawgBone]

Pentatonics are cool, but it's just one of the means of jazz or blues.
The great master of playing petatonic in improvisation was McCoy Tyner.
Perhaps it would be advisable to analyze his musical language, which he uses pentatonic when playing jazz standards.
He plays pentatonic notes at crazy tempos, creating a specific tension.

How to Use the Pentatonic Scale like McCoy Tyner in Your Solos • Jazzadvice

Excellent link. This might be a good pathway forward for me to look at.

[frabarmus]

Pentatonics are cool, but it's just one of the means of jazz or blues.

Yes, they're just one out of many arrows that are available for your bow. I like them as they make you sound less "scaliar" (if that's even a term). They're a good "compromise" between scales and arpeggios...

[Phil59]

[QUOTE=
Best get hold of every Robben Ford lesson vid you can and get it from the man

I know he adds the 6th to his pentatonic runs and uses altered scales. Stuff like that.[/QUOTE]

Speaking of Robben Ford, are you also using diminished scale/arpeggios for blues?

[rpjazzguitar]

I had to think a bit to understand it.

He started with Cmaj pentatonic.

Then, he considered which pentatonic has C as its second note. That's Bb major pentatonic, second mode, meaning, starting on its second note.

Doing it this way has the advantage of allowing you to hear all the modes starting on the same note.

I'd have to work out applications (which might be valuable, but I won't really do it) to see how this works with tunes. On the face of it, it seems complicated, as in, there's a ii V I in C, which modes of which pentatonic do I use? If I work with patterns how many new ones do I have to memorize? If I work with individual notes, I have to memorize what? Seems easier to leave notes out of the scales I have already memorized. But, maybe there's a better way.

[Mick-7]

I had to think a bit to understand it.

He started with Cmaj pentatonic.

Then, he considered which pentatonic has C as its second note. That's Bb major pentatonic, second mode, meaning, starting on its second note.

Doing it this way has the advantage of allowing you to hear all the modes starting on the same note.

I'd have to work out applications (which might be valuable, but I won't really do it) to see how this works with tunes. On the face of it, it seems complicated, as in, there's a ii V I in C, which modes of which pentatonic do I use? If I work with patterns how many new ones do I have to memorize? If I work with individual notes, I have to memorize what? Seems easier to leave notes out of the scales I have already memorized. But, maybe there's a better way.

Yes, that was actually my point (which got lost in a theoretical debate), and why I asked, "What do you see as the advantage of ordering the scales in that way?" Frabarmus did relate the scales to chords but it was ambiguous.

[rpjazzguitar]

Yes, that was actually my point (which got lost in a theoretical debate), and why I asked, "What do you see as the advantage of ordering the scales in that way?" Frabarmus did relate the scales to chords but it was ambiguous.

Another consideration is that, to my way of thinking, the goal is to be able to hear the sound in your mind and know how to find the notes to play it.

I'm happy if I can get one new sound into my playing in a year. Truth be told, I'm even slower than that. So, here are 5 modes of major pentatonic and here are a raft of other pentatonics and their modes, offered without specific applications ... I figure, there has to be a better way, at least for me. If others can benefit, that's great.

[frabarmus]

Frabarmus did relate the scales to chords but it was ambiguous.

Personally, I like the ambiguous sound of those three pentatonics, derived from major pentatonic, that are neither the major pentatonic itself nor the minor pentatonic commonly used, and want to incorporate them in my playing. Just "helping myself to them".

FWIW, I've asked Chat gpt (take with a grain of salt!), but, if anything else, it's interesting from a historic/cultural perspective.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All five modes of the pentatonic scale exist, but only two of them line up cleanly with the harmonic and tonal habits of common Western music practice — especially the major/minor system that developed from the 17th century onward.
Starting from the major pentatonic:

• C D E G A

its five rotations are:

1. C D E G A ? major pentatonic
2. D E G A C
3. E G A C D
4. G A C D E
5. A C D E G ? minor pentatonic

The 1st and 5th modes became standard because they strongly reinforce the two tonal poles Western ears are most accustomed to:

• major tonic feeling
• minor tonic feeling

The other three modes are more ambiguous.

---

Why the major and minor pentatonics became dominant

1. They map naturally onto triadic harmony

Major pentatonic

C D E G A
Contains:

• major triad tones: C–E–G
• plus consonant extensions: D (9), A (6)

No semitone clashes.
Minor pentatonic

A C D E G
Contains:

• minor triad tones: A–C–E
• plus consonant extensions: D (11), G (?7)

Again: no semitone tension.
These scales sit beautifully over the major/minor harmonic system.

---

2. The other modes lack a strong tonal center

Take the second mode:
D E G A C

What chord does this imply?

• no 3rd above D
• no leading tone
• no stable major/minor identity

It sounds suspended, open, or floating rather than tonally directed.
That makes it harder to integrate into classical harmonic syntax, where scales are expected to support tonic–dominant motion.

---

But the other modes are used

They just tend to appear:

• as melodic collections,
• in folk traditions,
• in modal jazz,
• in non-Western music,
• or as subsets of larger modal systems.

Here’s how the remaining modes tend to function.

---

2nd mode: D E G A C

This one has a very “suspended” sound.
Intervals from D:

• 1
• 2
• 4
• 5
• ?7

No 3rd.
This resembles:

• a dominant sus sound,
• or a D7sus pentatonic.

Very common in:

• jazz improvisation,
• fusion,
• funk,
• modal vamp playing.

Players often use it over:

• D7sus
• Dm11
• quartal harmony

McCoy Tyner and modern jazz pianists use collections like this constantly.

---

3rd mode: E G A C D

Intervals from E:

• 1
• ?3
• 4
• ?6
• ?7

This has a darker, more exotic quality.
It resembles an incomplete:

• Aeolian,
• Dorian?2-type,
• or even some Japanese pentatonic colors.

You hear related sounds in:

• film music,
• ambient/modal music,
• some East Asian traditions,
• experimental jazz.

Because it lacks a 5th, it feels unstable in Western tonal harmony.

---

4th mode: G A C D E

Intervals from G:

• 1
• 2
• 4
• 5
• 6

This is actually fairly common in folk traditions.
It resembles:

• a suspended major sound,
• close to Mixolydian without the 3rd and ?7.

Very usable over:

• Gsus
• G5
• drones

You hear this kind of sonority in:

• Celtic music,
• Appalachian folk,
• some African traditions,
• minimalist music.

It’s less common in classical harmony because, again, it omits the defining 3rd.

---

A deeper reason: Western theory privileges scales that define chords

In Western tonal music, scales became subordinate to harmony.
The important notes are the ones that define:

• major vs minor,
• tonic vs dominant,
• cadential motion.

The major and minor pentatonics preserve those identities clearly.
The other modes often remove:

• the 3rd,
• the leading tone,
• or the dominant function.

So they sound:

• modal,
• floating,
• non-functional,
• drone-oriented.

That made them less central in European classical development, though they remained very important elsewhere.

---

In many non-Western traditions, all five are meaningful

For example:

• Chinese pentatonic systems treat all rotations as distinct modal entities.
• Japanese pentatonic traditions use related modal forms extensively.
• Scottish and Celtic traditions frequently center on non-major/non-minor pentatonic modes.
• African musical traditions often treat pentatonic collections more flexibly than Western harmony does.

So the “only two are used” idea is really specific to the Western common-practice tonal system.

---

One interesting modern perspective

In jazz and contemporary improvisation, musicians often think of pentatonic modes as:

• chord-color tools,
• intervallic cells,
• modal subsets.

So all five modes are absolutely active in modern practice — just not usually taught as “named scales” in beginner theory.

[Strat-itis]

DB, I'm actually in this exact project. My goal is to have my jazz playing always sound like the blues. I've found that you really have to make it up yourself depending on what sound you want. Going by prescribed approaches can sound artificial. I'll try to list some of my basic devices.

First there's shifty blues.

Say over a C7 chord.

C blues gives it down home, standard minor blues
A blues is major blues, aka major pent with a b3 added
E blues gives it a major blues but less bright sound, more jazzy
G blues avoids the 3rd but sounds grounded, or can be used for suspended.

Next you can add scales to the blues scale, not just mix 2 blues scales.

C blues scale and:
Mixolydian
Dorian
Try other scales that you use

Finally you can add other melodic shapes to the blues scale besides scales. The 2 being chromatics and arps.

Enclosure into arp, into blues scale etc. Treat the blues scale as a puzzle piece, not a standalone device.

[ragman1]

DawgBone: “Can someone explain pentatonic modes?”


Mick: “you don't need to be concerned with modes, just improvise with it as you would a regular major or minor scale.“


frabarmus: “Here's my take on pentatonic modes” (shows a table of the pentatonic modes, all starting on C)


DawgBone: “Ok,thank you. I'm gonna go give this a shot and I'll check back in if I have questions. “ Problem solved(maybe), hope so, at least to some extent.


Mick: “Those are not modes, they are pentatonic scales derived from a major scale and it's parallel minor scale, i.e., C major and C natural minor (or C major and Eb major). It's not clear to me why you chose those particular scale tones. “


frabarmus: “In my book they are modes, eccept they're transposed in C for the purpose of hearing each mode's distinct character (on a C pedalpoint). Whereas if played "consecutively" (C firstmode/major pent., D second mode; E third mode; G fourth mode; A fifthmode/minor pentatonic) they would all sound major pentatonic, just starting from different scale degrees of the major pentatonic scale.“


Mick: “Idon't know what your arrangement of scales would be called butthey're not modes. Ifyou hadn't called them "modes" I would've thought you wereplaying C major and C minor pentatonic scales. I don't think it makes sense to apply modal theory to pentatonic scales."


Etc.

That's all there is to it as I see it. Yeah, what's all the fuss about? Not a problem or fighting over a bone... just aswering DawgBone's question turned into a music theory disquisition., I guess... whell, why not, afterall? This is quite typical of JGO :-)

P.S. Applying modal theory to pentatonic scales has been done anyway by an illustrious figure such as Ramon Ricker, and can be appealing to at least some people, from a musical/esthetic standpoint, if not a theoric one.

Thank you for listing the replies devoid of distracting other posts. Now I see how extraordinarily dumb it all was :-)

Q. Can you explain pent modes?
1. Here's a list of them.
2. They're not modes.

[Phil59]

I never knew that playing the blues could be so complicated!

[pauln]

The past two years I have poured two or three thousand man hours into blending major and minor pentatonics and blues scales better, bolstered by chord tones, color tones, and passing tones, making it work pretty seamlessly and am beginning to hit it's logical conclusion so I need to start looking for some additional options, hence the thread.

Part of the confusion is that modes themselves have two perspectives. You know shifting the same shape fingering between Am pent and down four frets to play A major pent. You know shifting between the same sounds while maintaining position and changing the fingering. Those are the two perspectives frabarmus and Mick-7 were discussing.

You're already integrating it with the other things you mention. Those passing tones are refingerings in a position to achieve switching modes based on a chord change. Changing the third between major and minor is manipulating the blues scale for chord changes. The color tones may very well be parts of non-"diatonic" pent modes which probably have some correct theory name... so use all these things, learn how they sound, in different contexts, when to reliably apply them in tunes to get the sounds you want.

Hitting their logical conclusion means the mechanics is coming under your fingers. The additional options are all about internalizing musical judgement for applications - how to make manifest out of the instrument what you want to hear.

[pamosmusic]

Yes, that was actually my point (which got lost in a theoretical debate), and why I asked, "What do you see as the advantage of ordering the scales in that way?" Frabarmus did relate the scales to chords but it was ambiguous.

Imagine you’re playing So What …

You could play Dm pentatonic … so you get D F G A C

You could also play Am pentatonic … so you get D E G A C

You could also play Em pentatonic … so you get D E G A B

Different colors but allowing you to use pretty normal Pentatonic vocabulary.

[pamosmusic]

More fun is just tweaking notes of the pentatonics. You’d come to the same stuff but also some other cool ones. I called this one the Freddy King pentatonic but I don’t think he uses it particularly more than anyone else … just noticed it in his stuff …

1 b3 4 5 6 1

or

C Eb F G A C

so hip

[wolflen]

Im pushing myself with this..

Using each note of the pent scale as the first note in the tune London Bridge ( and some lines from Wayne Shorters "Infant Eyes")

then end with a blues feel ..usually just a 9th chord

doing that on pent scales a tritone apart .. so C and Gb A and Eb etc

then run some blues licks and connect them

some very cool sounds outside and back home blues

Use the pents as spring boards to some licks and lines in tunes you know make em swing and rock

[kris]

Thank you for listing the replies devoid of distracting other posts. Now I see how extraordinarily dumb it all was :-)

Q. Can you explain pent modes?
1. Here's a list of them.
2. They're not modes.

Calling the pentatonic scale 'mode' from different degrees causes confusion.
This is not the right term.
mode 1,mode 2 etc - This is misleading in relation to the names of modes used in other scales that are not pentatonic.
For example, Major Scale -Ionian (1st Mode),Dorian (2nd Mode)..etc.
The more appropriate name is 'scale Shapes'
f.ex..On the guitar,there are five scale SHAPES-one for each scale tone/Pentatonic major scale/...shape1 shape 2 etc.
This is the nomenclature used by Tom Chase in the 'Pentatonic Guitar Guide' – a book written 44 years ago.

[kris]

I never knew that playing the blues could be so complicated!

Playing blues well is more complicated and not easy.

[Mick-7]

How to Use the Pentatonic Scale like McCoy Tyner in Your Solos • Jazzadvice

Excellent link. This might be a good pathway forward for me to look at.

The last chapter (#13) of Bergonzi's book on poly-pentatonics appears to describe McCoy Tyner's approach to using pentatonic scales.

I called this one the Freddy King pentatonic but I don’t think he uses it particularly more than anyone else… just noticed it in his stuff…
1 b3 4 5 6 1

Bergonzi calls this the "minor 6" pentatonic scale in his book.

[ragman1]

Can someone explain pentatonic modes?

Yes, but apparently not in such a way as would make anyone rush out and buy some.

[frabarmus]

Can someone explain pentatonic modes? Yes, but apparently not in such a way as would make anyone rush out and buy some.

Some believe in them, some don't. I guess I'm a bit gullible, I rushed out and bought them (but I'm happy)

[ragman1]

I don't suppose there's a rat's chance in hell of letting us hear this new epiphany in your playing?

I mean, it would only be fair if you're actually using these pent modes and you're happeee! :-)

[frabarmus]

I don't suppose there's a rat's chance in hell of letting us hear this new epiphany in your playing?

I mean, it would only be fair if you're actually using these pent modes and you're happeee! :-)

I'm happy to have found them, they don't spontaneously appear, yet, in my playing... I'm still at beginner's stage with them: exploring/studying them, mapping tnem out on the fretboard, working on applying them to their related chords... will post something as I make progress.

[frabarmus]

This is where I'm at (at the moment). Also working my way through the remaining ones.

[frabarmus]

I've spent the last year and a half working on the mixing of major and minor pentatonic scales over standard I IV V blues changes. I've been looking for some additional soloing options and every time I hear someone using stuff outside pentatonics and chord tones in a blues setting it strikes me as either too jazzy for my sound or like someone just trying to sound too clever. I stumbled across some of the "pentatonic modes" but can't find any good explanation of how it's meant to work. Not even sure if it's what I'm looking for but I'd try it.

I understand they begin on the different scale degrees but I really don't get how I'm supposed to apply them over standard blues changes.

@ Ragman, I've limited myself to explaining, in a linear way, the pentatonic modes. I agree they probabily don't work very well for standard blues.