Can someone explain pentatonic modes?

[DawgBone]

I think you can leave the word "mostly" out of that name.

The important part, at least from my view, is the pattern, not whether one decides to omit or include passing tones. Unlike the 3 note per string patterns I was given as a student, I found they offer more utility for use in a major blues.

[Mick-7]

The important part, at least from my view, is the pattern, not whether one decides to omit or include passing tones. Unlike the 3 note per string patterns I was given as a student, I found they offer more utility for use in a major blues.

Whatever works for you, but I see no definite pattern in your scales - they're much too vague to be useful to me. But it's more of a technical than a melodic approach to finding the notes on the fretboard, yes?

[DawgBone]

Whatever works for you, but I see no definite pattern in your scales - they're much too vague to be useful to me. But it's more of a technical than a melodic approach to finding the notes on the fretboard, yes?

No. While I am certain your grasp of theory is much greater than mine I am also certain my grasp of utility in a straight blues context is much greater than yours.

[Mick-7]

DB, Actually, you've added two chromatic notes to the common minor blues scale: A-C-(C#)-D-Eb-E-G-(G#).

As I said in an earlier post ( Can someone explain pentatonic modes? ) - "the lesson is that you can spice up a pentatonic scale by adding a chromatic note to it."

You've just added every available spice - in fact, you combined the 3 scales I listed in that post.

[ragman1]

Dawgbone -

I don't think we've ever heard you play. You must have something recorded somewhere. Could we hear the kind of blues you play and possibly the sort of blues you'd want to use these modes with? Personally, I'd find that beneficial.

[DawgBone]

DB, Actually, you've added two chromatic notes to the common minor blues scale: A-C-(C#)-D-Eb-E-G-(G#).

As I said in an earlier post ( Can someone explain pentatonic modes? ) - "the lesson is that you can spice up a pentatonic scale by adding a chromatic note to it."

You've just added every available spice - in fact, you combined the 3 scales I listed in that post.

I am probably off base somewhat, but with the patterns I came up with the goal was to mix major and minor pentatonics/blues scales in a way that allows easy traversing of the neck, weaving in and out of both major and minor, through the standard box shapes. IME the standard box shapes work great but tend to trap most blues players into them. "Play in this box/shape" and you find yourself in paralysis when trying to move up or down the neck with ease. I had already worked connecting them string by string, up and down, but not in a diagonal fashion, so this gives me that ability.

Granted, those particular patterns are better for ascents than descents because they can all be hammered smoothly and easily, creating a triplet feel that flow inside 12/8 slow blues or 4/4 funk grooves. Shuffles are another challenge. Generally I do not use the pattern as a whole, but mix up sections of them as suits my fancy and the changes.

[DawgBone]

Dawgbone -

I don't think we've ever heard you play. You must have something recorded somewhere. Could we hear the kind of blues you play and possibly the sort of blues you'd want to use these modes with? Personally, I'd find that beneficial.

I have shared last years release with a couple members privately but tbh during the recording of it in '24 and early '25 I was busy working on incorporating what I've posted here into my playing, and it's only more recently that it's worked it's way into it (almost) fully, so it didn't really appear on the record. Also since it was grant driven I had deadlines that had to be met and I was rushed to some degree.

I'm hoping to have a couple singles out later this summer, one of which will feature some of what I'm discussing here. I would rather share what should be my best work at that time. Hence the thread, since I'm trying to wring the pentatonic chamois for all it's worth.

[ragman1]

Dawg, don't be too precious, it doesn't have to be a bravura performance for this place, we've heard it all! The point is to start small with this kind of thing. Find even a single pent mode that makes a chord sound really juicy and incorporate it, that's all, and work up from there. You don't have to wait till you've got the performance of the century, just post something.

I am personally pretty convinced these modes have something to offer but no one's going to play a whole tune like that, they're just a little spice in the pudding, so to speak. Which is what you said you wanted, after all.

Anyway, up to you.

[DawgBone]

Dawg, don't be too precious, it doesn't have to be a bravura performance for this place, we've heard it all! The point is to start small with this kind of thing. Find even a single pent mode that makes a chord sound really juicy and incorporate it, that's all, and work up from there. You don't have to wait till you've got the performance of the century, just post something.

I am personally pretty convinced these modes have something to offer but no one's going to play a whole tune like that, they're just a little spice in the pudding, so to speak. Which is what you said you wanted, after all.

Anyway, up to you.

It has to be a bravura performance for me to be motivated to share it, that's the problem. I'm definitely my own worst critic. I have a couple tunes that are waiting for some finishing touches. Maybe I'll be able to capture some video footage in some upcoming shows that reflect what I've spent a couple thousand hours on....unbelievable how much time I've spent hammering those patterns and variations thereof so it can be nailed live and there is still never a guarantee. I have a couple festivals next month, one of which is a local affair that has my name on it so standards must be upheld and statements must be made!

[ragman1]

It has to be a bravura performance for me to be motivated to share it, that's the problem.

Yeah, I know :-)

[ragman1]

This is sexy :-)

[kris]

Master Frank Gambale discusses the use of pentatonic in a very clear way.You can practice for hours.Let's learn from the guitar masters.

[DawgBone]

I'll have to check that Gambale out in the a.m cause I recall him saying in a previous interview that he moved away from blues because he got bored with it. I do not accept blues is boring comments. I'm biased but I always assume it's because the guy saying it plays blues in a way I would find boring myself.

I've never been big on Robben Ford, probably because he is geared towards a jazzier taste and I prefer a raw aggressive sound like Lucky Peterson or Saron Crenshaw.

Lately on weekends off gigs I been watching live streamed performances at Rosa's Lounge in Chicago. Man, Chicago still has the best blues scene easily, and guys still play with fire there. If it wasn't cold in the winter and expensive there I would have no choice but to relocate.

[kris]

I'll have to check that Gambale out in the a.m cause I recall him saying in a previous interview that he moved away from blues because he got bored with it. I do not accept blues is boring comments. I'm biased but I always assume it's because the guy saying it plays blues in a way I would find boring myself.

I've never been big on Robben Ford, probably because he is geared towards a jazzier taste and I prefer a raw aggressive sound like Lucky Peterson or Saron Crenshaw.

Lately on weekends off gigs I been watching live streamed performances at Rosa's Lounge in Chicago. Man, Chicago still has the best blues scene easily, and guys still play with fire there. If it wasn't cold in the winter and expensive there I would have no choice but to relocate.

Recently, I participated in a dozen or so jam sessions with blues.
Playing three sets on three chords is really boring.
Most blues musicians play in the same keys, which makes it even more boring and uninteresting.
20 years ago I played in Switzerland at a big blues festival.
It so happened that I played on a small stage in front of a large concert hall, where the star was BB. King.
I looked there through the back entrance. BB. King, I really liked his performance... And it was exciting—a brilliant bluesman.
I stayed in the same hotel as BB. King.
Amazing.

[ragman1]

I've never been big on Robben Ford, probably because he is geared towards a jazzier taste and I prefer a raw aggressive sound like Lucky Peterson or Saron Crenshaw.

Ah ha, that's been going through my mind from the beginning. So can you think of any raw aggressive players who are using your pent modes idea?

Are the two styles actually compatible?

[DawgBone]

Recently, I participated in a dozen or so jam sessions with blues.
Playing three sets on three chords is really boring.
Most blues musicians play in the same keys, which makes it even more boring and uninteresting.
20 years ago I played in Switzerland at a big blues festival.
It so happened that I played on a small stage in front of a large concert hall, where the star was BB. King.
I looked there through the back entrance. BB. King, I really liked his performance... And it was exciting—a brilliant bluesman.
I stayed in the same hotel as BB. King.
Amazing.

I saw BB King in the late 90's before he was in sit-down mode. It was a good show but he seemed tired. I felt like he should've hung it up back then and gone out while still in his prime rather than soldier forward into some of the embarrassing performances he was noted for later. Only later did I consider that when retiring would affect a hundred people's well being negatively, he might've done the right thing in that regard. It looks like Buddy Guy is taking the same pathway at 89. I also suppose there is the fact that quitting work usually results in an earlier death so the motivation is to keep going until you're dead or physically unable to. I love me some Buddy Guy.

I've played blues a long time. I've never done three sets limited to three chords but I suppose at a jam with amateurs it's possible. I host a jam in a couple weeks, but the blues society runs it so I play my short set and get offstage. Most of the songs I'll be playing are more than three chords. I play stuff right now in every key but Gb, Ab, and Eb but I tune down a 1/2 step so technically most of the keys are flat in concert pitch. I still love a 12/8 slow blues like the day I picked up the guitar. Seems to be a disappearing art form. Most players cannot stick it well so it's a litmus test IMO for someone who considers themselves serious. It's important to me to do that well, above anything else. Those thousands of hours were spent mostly experimenting with these mixed licks over a 12/8 backing track. I still don't consider myself any good. Just before I'm dead I should be close though.

[DawgBone]

Ah ha, that's been going through my mind from the beginning. So can you think of any raw aggressive players who are using your pent modes idea?

Are the two styles actually compatible?

I can't answer your questions with any surety. I suspect it has been harnessed in some way by more than a few serious blues players, which inspired me to figure out a way for myself. I just know that when I tried to copy someone else's licks I usually got frustrated and quit trying, because I am not someone else, I'm me. I know the basic idiomatic licks, everything else I had to come up with on my own. Blues is a feeling, therefore, I play what I feel at the time I'm called to play it. Everything outside that is beyond my scope of interest I guess. The journey is in finding your own sound, right?

[ragman1]

I can't answer your questions with any surety. I suspect it has been harnessed in some way by more than a few serious blues players, which inspired me to figure out a way for myself. I just know that when I tried to copy someone else's licks I usually got frustrated and quit trying, because I am not someone else, I'm me. I know the basic idiomatic licks, everything else I had to come up with on my own. Blues is a feeling, therefore, I play what I feel at the time I'm called to play it. Everything outside that is beyond my scope of interest I guess. The journey is in finding your own sound, right?

More than right

[kris]

I saw BB King in the late 90's before he was in sit-down mode. It was a good show but he seemed tired. I felt like he should've hung it up back then and gone out while still in his prime rather than soldier forward into some of the embarrassing performances he was noted for later. Only later did I consider that when retiring would affect a hundred people's well being negatively, he might've done the right thing in that regard. It looks like Buddy Guy is taking the same pathway at 89. I also suppose there is the fact that quitting work usually results in an earlier death so the motivation is to keep going until you're dead or physically unable to. I love me some Buddy Guy.

I've played blues a long time. I've never done three sets limited to three chords but I suppose at a jam with amateurs it's possible. I host a jam in a couple weeks, but the blues society runs it so I play my short set and get offstage. Most of the songs I'll be playing are more than three chords. I play stuff right now in every key but Gb, Ab, and Eb but I tune down a 1/2 step so technically most of the keys are flat in concert pitch. I still love a 12/8 slow blues like the day I picked up the guitar. Seems to be a disappearing art form. Most players cannot stick it well so it's a litmus test IMO for someone who considers themselves serious. It's important to me to do that well, above anything else. Those thousands of hours were spent mostly experimenting with these mixed licks over a 12/8 backing track. I still don't consider myself any good. Just before I'm dead I should be close though.

Quite good musicians played at the jam session, but my impression was that everyone was playing the same similar typical blues phrases.
Very good blues stylish phrases.
I've been listening to the blues for over 50 years.
I just know what to expect.

[kris]

[DawgBone]

I'm quite familiar with him. He is an amazing fusion musician, but I do not care at all for the way he plays blues. It sounds like a guy trying to hard to be different, and just making a mess instead.

[kris]

I'm quite familiar with him. He is an amazing fusion musician, but I do not care at all for the way he plays blues. It sounds like a guy trying to hard to be different, and just making a mess instead.

I would like to make such a mess.
His playing is very modern and I understand every phrase he says.
It's not the poor language of a blues musician, and he does it well.Here he plays more traditionally:

[DawgBone]

I would like to make such a mess.
His playing is very modern and I understand every phrase he says.
It's not the poor language of a blues musician, and he does it well.Here he plays more traditionally:

I'm not sure what you mean by "the poor language of a blues musician". Blues is blues, not anything else.

His traditional playing there is on par with an above average blues player in any number of major cities, which is why I'm guessing he branched out into fusion since he was not willing to look for more idiomatic sounding ideas of his own i.e "the poor language". He has always struck me as a SRV clone who got bored and went into fusion to get musical relief. I just don't get turned on by that sort of thing. I'd rather hear Chris Cain, Saron Crenshaw, Lucky Peterson, Rico McFarlane, or any number of other guys who stayed closer to the tradition, rather than going outside of it.

[wolflen]

I'm not sure what you mean by "the poor language of a blues musician". Blues is blues, not anything else.

His traditional playing there is on par with an above average blues player in any number of major cities, which is why I'm guessing he branched out into fusion since he was not willing to look for more idiomatic sounding ideas of his own i.e "the poor language". He has always struck me as a SRV clone who got bored and went into fusion to get musical relief. I just don't get turned on by that sort of thing. I'd rather hear Chris Cain, Saron Crenshaw, Lucky Peterson, Rico McFarlane, or any number of other guys who stayed closer to the tradition, rather than going outside of it.

How about Paul Butterfield Blues Band with Mike Bloomfield..thats raw Chicago blues.

[kris]

I'm not sure what you mean by "the poor language of a blues musician". Blues is blues, not anything else.

His traditional playing there is on par with an above average blues player in any number of major cities, which is why I'm guessing he branched out into fusion since he was not willing to look for more idiomatic sounding ideas of his own i.e "the poor language". He has always struck me as a SRV clone who got bored and went into fusion to get musical relief. I just don't get turned on by that sort of thing. I'd rather hear Chris Cain, Saron Crenshaw, Lucky Peterson, Rico McFarlane, or any number of other guys who stayed closer to the tradition, rather than going outside of it.

So we have completely different musical interests.
I'm not a blues musician, but I like blues.
I like how musicians experiment with blues or have blues influences in their playing.
I love jazz music.
I appreciate playing blues in style, but I don't have the need to play such music.
A long time ago, I played in a school blues band when I was 16 years old.
It was an interesting experience.
That was what I was passionate about at the time.After I went to music school, I became seriously interested in jazz.
Best
Kris