Something interesting about the chorus of 'It Could Happen To You' (sheet music)

[kris]

I think what Peter is suggesting is that you can both learn songs by ear and also check out old sheet music to see what you can learn about songs. There's no reason to dismiss either.

As I say, until a few years ago I tended to just learn jazz versions by ear, and that's still my main approach to learning tunes. But, I've become more interested in song sheets over time. If nothing else, it's a lot easier to find them now than a few years ago.

It's not uncommon for musicians who are interested in the deep recesses of the GASB repertoire to dig into old sheet music like this. Peter Bernstein, Michael Kanan, Brad Mehldau (he said of Bernstein - "Pete was the first musician I met who would make periodic pilgrimages to the New York Public Library to get the original sheet music for, say, an Irving Berlin tune.") and loads of others all do it, as well as players on my local scene. Here's Ethan Iverson's thoughts on it.

Original Sheet Music of Two Dozen Jazz Standards | DO THE M@TH

One thing Ethan says which is pertinent is:

"The sheet music is just one reference. It’s no “urtext” of a song in the manner of European classical music. Some of the composers may have been more like a folk composer, such as Irving Berlin, who apparently could not write out a piano score. Other prolific composers may not have overseen each piece of piano/vocal sheet music. More tangibly, a comparison of the sheet with a historical “straight” (non-jazz) performance on record or in a movie will show many differences. "

Sorry Christian,
I've dealt with outstanding musicians who had a brilliant ear. They learned by listening to Coltrane, Parker, Evans, Davis, Aderley and other outstanding musicians. They didn't teach tunes, They just learned the jazz language.Most of them didn't even have a Real Book.
As far as I know, none of them looked for the version in the archives - they just played at a very high level.
I also know a musicologist - a jazzman, who searched in archives, but he was a much worse jazz musician. Talent?-I don't know.
These are my experiences with professional local musicians.

[kris]

... look at ballad:

[joe2758]

"I also know a musicologist - a jazzman, who searched in archives, but he was a much worse jazz musician. Talent?-I don't know."

Ugh I knew it was making me worse. dammit.

[joe2758]

One time I ordered the old sheet music for Stella and forgot half my jazz vocab

[kris]

Uh, because Jimmy Van Heusen didn't write good chord changes?

I'm a little sad that you don't seem to understand the benefit of looking at what the song was originally before the jazzers got their paws on it. In many cases the "good" changes in things like the Real Book are just flat out "wrong;" they're written for the convenience of bebop style playing which is not necessarily the same thing as playing music. There is a reason that a lot of these composers hated jazz interpretations of their songs.

FWIW, Peter Bernstein is well known for making a point of finding the original sheet music for songs that he wants to learn so that he can see what it was before jazz superimposed itself on it.

You're late, my friend.I have already explained it or tried to explain it.
I am a musician-jazz improviser.I'm interested in the language of jazz, not song archives.
Appreciate the work of outstanding jazzmen who adopt songs to be jazz.
I think I'm not the only one who thinks that way.
Once Miles Davis had a very bad comment from a brilliant Spanish composer that he spoiled his compositions.
Sketches of Spain-adaptation of Joaquín Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez.
The album was a huge success.
Was it a success for Miles or the composer?

[Christian Miller]

Sorry Christian,

You are forgiven!

I've dealt with outstanding musicians who had a brilliant ear.

Oh that's not how you meant it...

They learned by listening to Coltrane, Parker, Evans, Davis, Aderley and other outstanding musicians. They didn't teach tunes, They just learned the jazz language.Most of them didn't even have a Real Book.
As far as I know, none of them looked for the version in the archives - they just played at a very high level.
I also know a musicologist - a jazzman, who searched in archives, but he was a much worse jazz musician. Talent?-I don't know.
These are my experiences with professional local musicians.

You're sort of repeating the same thing over and over, and I kind of covered it in the last post I made, so at this point it just seems you aren't reading what I wrote.

I'll try say it again just in case I wasn't clear

You can in fact, do both when learning a song. One does not preclude the other.

You seem to be thinking I am arguing that we must study sheet music. If I was saying that, you'd be right to maintain that learning by ear is the most important thing.

BUT what I am actually saying is that it can be instructive and interesting to check out sheet music in addition to learning songs by ear. Furthermore I've linked to an article discussing this by one of NYC's leading jazz pianists. Honestly, take it or bloody leave it at this point. I'm tired.

That said, I can't help notice that in another thread you seemed to be confidently asserting that we should all learn Charlie Parker from the Omnibook and not check out his records ourselves, so .. I dunno.

Maybe you just like arguing for its own sake. If you do, I respect that, but please try and address what I actually said.

[Christian Miller]

You're late, my friend.I have already explained it or tried to explain it.
I am a musician-jazz improviser.I'm interested in the language of jazz, not song archives.
Appreciate the work of outstanding jazzmen who adopt songs to be jazz.
I think I'm not the only one who thinks that way.
Once Miles Davis had a very bad comment from a brilliant Spanish composer that he spoiled his compositions.
Sketches of Spain-adaptation of Joaquín Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez.
The album was a huge success.
Was it a success for Miles or the composer?

Eh?

Is the argument that here Gill Evans didn't first consult the original Rodrigo when writing his own arrangements? That Miles wasn't familiar with the straight version before interpreting the melodies in his own way?

[kris]

You are forgiven!

Oh that's not how you meant it...


You're sort of repeating the same thing over and over, and I kind of covered it in the last post I made, so at this point it just seems you aren't reading what I wrote.

I'll try say it again just in case I wasn't clear

You can in fact, do both when learning a song. One does not preclude the other.

You seem to be thinking I am arguing that we must study sheet music. If I was saying that, you'd be right to maintain that learning by ear is the most important thing.

BUT what I am actually saying is that it can be instructive and interesting to check out sheet music in addition to learning songs by ear. Furthermore I've linked to an article discussing this by one of NYC's leading jazz pianists. Honestly, take it or bloody leave it at this point. I'm tired.

That said, I can't help notice that in another thread you seemed to be confidently asserting that we should all learn Charlie Parker from the Omnibook and not check out his records ourselves, so .. I dunno.

Maybe you just like arguing for its own sake. If you do, I respect that, but please try and address what I actually said.

Now you are the one who manipulates my statements.
I didn't say anything about the Omnibook you wrote.
Or you misunderstood me.
I said that the Omnibook is a kind of methodological exercise-starting material.
You practice with Parker's original recording... Small mistakes that you can correct are not important. You practice at a slowt empo piece by piece and adapt to the specifics of the guitar.
Good Buy
ps.
If you want to hear it, I'll say:
Omnibook-it's for less talented musicians like me.

[kris]

There are also outstanding blind musicians who do not look in archives... true. They are focused on listening and playing.

[grahambop]

Once Miles Davis had a very bad comment from a brilliant Spanish composer that he spoiled his compositions.
Sketches of Spain-adaptation of Joaquín Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez.
The album was a huge success.
Was it a success for Miles or the composer?

I read somewhere that Rodrigo intensely disliked the album, but when the royalty cheques started to pour in, he changed his mind!

[pamosmusic]

There are also outstanding blind musicians who do not look in archives... true. They are focused on listening and playing.

Put this one in a museum

[pamosmusic]

Now you are the one who manipulates my statements.
I didn't say anything about the Omnibook you wrote.
Or you misunderstood me.
I said that the Omnibook is a kind of methodological exercise-starting material.
You practice with Parker's original recording... Small mistakes that you can correct are not important. You practice at a slowt empo piece by piece and adapt to the specifics of the guitar.
Good Buy
ps.
If you want to hear it, I'll say:
Omnibook-it's for less talented musicians like me.

let’s try this

“I said that the [original recording] is a kind of methodological exercise-starting material.
You practice with [the classic jazz] recording...”

Do you see?

[kris]

I read somewhere that Rodrigo intensely disliked the album, but when the royalty cheques started to pour in, he changed his mind!

It's true.
Miles talked about it in his autobiography.
Miles' version further popularized Rodrigo's brilliant composition.
Sometimes I listen to this album – a very nice Spanish atmosphere in Miles' vision.
Best
Kris

[kris]

let’s try this

“I said that the [original recording] is a kind of methodological exercise-starting material.
You practice with [the classic jazz] recording...”

Do you see?

no......!
I was referring to Parker's original recording.
Omnibook-this is a starting material.
You can try to play something from the Omnibook without Parker recording -first. You will become familiar with the notes and learn how to play it on the guitar.This first step...Please ...Read what Aebersold writes in the Omnibook.Maybe then everything will be as bright as the sun.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I’m not getting it tbh.

I think I’m OK about that, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mick-7]

This thread Could Happen To You - but hopefully it won't!

But back to the song.....

Here's Ralph Patt's vanilla chart of it, which I think is accurate, but people may disagree about chord synonyms, e.g., a dim chord may become a 7b9 chord (and of course in the Real Book it's mandatory to precede each 7b9 with a IIm7b5 chord), a IV^ chord may be called a IIm7 chord (Db6 = Bbm7), chord extensions may be added or omitted, etc.

Chords can assume different guises without their basic function changing. Brent said that I was "nitpicking" by pointing this out, "But it's not a plain V7 chord!" Doesn't have to be, it can be a number of similar chords that serve the same function.

[kris]

Yeah I’m not getting it tbh.

I think I’m OK about that, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good night!
In Polish-'Dobranoc"
Best
Kris

[kris]

This thread Could Happen To You - but hopefully it won't!

But back to the song.....

Here's Ralph Patt's vanilla chart of it, which I think is accurate, but people may disagree about chord synonyms, e.g., a dim chord may become a 7b9 chord (and of course in the Real Book it's mandatory to precede each 7b9 with a IIm7b5 chord), a IV^ chord may be called a IIm7 chord (Db6 = Bbm7), chord extensions may be added or omitted, etc.

Chords can assume different guises without their basic function changing. Brent said that I was "nitpicking" by pointing this out, "But it's not a plain V7 chord!" Doesn't have to be, it can be a number of similar chords that serve the same function.

I have the impression that this is not what this is about.
But I could be wrong because it's already night.

[pamosmusic]

This thread Could Happen To You - but hopefully it won't!

But back to the song.....

Here's Ralph Patt's vanilla chart of it, which I think is accurate, but people may disagree about chord synonyms, e.g., a dim chord may become a 7b9 chord (and of course in the Real Book it's mandatory to precede each 7b9 with a IIm7b5 chord), a IV^ chord may be called a IIm7 chord (Db6 = Bbm7), chord extensions may be added or omitted, etc.

Chords can assume different guises without their basic function changing. Brent said that I was "nitpicking" by pointing this out, "But it's not a plain V7 chord!" Doesn't have to be, it can be a number of similar chords that serve the same function.

But I think you’re missing the point, Mick.

Yes there are lots of chords that do the job “getting you to I” … ***but how does one choose which to use?

Brent was pointing out something potentially interesting about the way past performers of the tune chose from
between those guises.

Because they sound different. Dbm and Eb7 might be functionally interchangeable but they are not musically interchangeable.

Classic example … Ab6 and Abmaj7 … they’re doing the same work but maj6 is A Train and maj7 is Misty.

[Mick-7]

But I think you’re missing the point, Mick.

Yes there are lots of chords that do the job “getting you to I” … ***but how does one choose which to use?

Brent was pointing out something potentially interesting about the way past performers of the tune chose from
between those guises.

Because they sound different. Dbm and Eb7 might be functionally interchangeable but they are not musically interchangeable.

Classic example … Ab6 and Abmaj7 … they’re doing the same work but maj6 is A Train and maj7 is Misty.

No, I think you missed my point, the examples you gave are not chord synonyms, and therefore do not serve the same functions, brent's old piano sheet music had a couple of errors in it.

I have the impression that this is not what this is about.

I think the discussion is about interpreting the harmony.... what is the basic harmony? People will dress it up in various ways.

Q. "Does this dress make me look fat?"
A. "Well actually....."

[AllanAllen]

Brent, for more of the American context. This thread is like riding the Ashland bus at 1am, or the Red Line after a Cubs game, it's uncomfortable and you want to get off, but it's also your only way home.

[pamosmusic]

No, I think you missed my point, the examples you gave are not chord synonyms, and therefore do not serve the same functions,

The Dbm and the Eb7 don’t both get you to I? Ab6 and Abmaj7 don’t serve the same function?

brent's old piano sheet music had a couple of errors in it.

Did it? You just posted other links of lead sheets. Not sure why that should have more weight than anything else.

I don’t really know why this invalidates the point anyway — yeah — people could play Dbm instead of Eb7, A7 instead of Eb7, C7 to Fm instead of Eb7 to Ab … but why would they choose to do so? Is the artistic choice just irrelevant? As an improviser, I find myself more interested in the flexibility I have to make different choices and maybe not interested enough in the cumulative effect of those choices. Composers and arrangers tend to be much more cognizant of those things — so why not pay attention?

[Mick-7]

Brent, for more of the American context. This thread is like riding the Ashland bus at 1am, or the Red Line after a Cubs game, it's uncomfortable and you want to get off, but it's also your only way home.

Well, after a Cubs game, you were feeling awfully uncomfortable before you even left the stadium to get on the bus, which is also kind of true of this thread.

[pamosmusic]

Well, after a Cubs game, you were feeling awfully uncomfortable before you even left the stadium to get on the bus, which is also kind of true of this thread.

Mick I’m pretty sure you’re the rowdy drunk guy in this analogy.

[Mick-7]

The Dbm and the Eb7 don’t both get you to I? Ab6 and Abmaj7 don’t serve the same function?

As I'm sure you know, major 6th & 7th chords may or may not serve the same function, and I don't normally replace a V7 chord with a IVm chord, do you?

I don’t really know why this invalidates the point anyway — yeah — people could play Dbm instead of Eb7, A7 instead of Eb7, C7 to Fm instead of Eb7 to Ab … but why would they choose to do so? Is the artistic choice just irrelevant? As an improviser, I find myself more interested in the flexibility I have to make different choices and maybe not interested enough in the cumulative effect of those choices. Composers and arrangers tend to be much more cognizant of those things — so why not pay attention?

Not sure what point I was invalidating? As I said, there are many way to dress up (or alter) the basic changes, it's up to the interpreter.

P.S. - The chord changes in the chart that brent posted are almost identical to Patt's Vanilla chord changes, just a couple of insignificant differences I think.