Something interesting about the chorus of 'It Could Happen To You' (sheet music)

[pamosmusic]

And do you know the answer....?
Maybe they listened to the radio if it worked then...
Songs that have become jazz standards.
Maybe they learned from their older friends by listening to them in clubs?
Real Books probably didn't exist then.Maybe there were songs published in books with piano accompaniment.

Do you have any interesting ideas?
ps.
Maybe mother, father, grandparents sang popular songs over the cradle of future musicians.

Its almost like you’re saying they learned them from varied sources, including perhaps, but not limited to, the original pop recordings and music.

[kris]

Its almost like you’re saying they learned them from varied sources, including perhaps, but not limited to, the original pop recordings and music.

It's easier for me to tell you how I learned Old Tunes.
From the age of 16 I went to jazz clubs.
I listened to a lot of various bands from Poland and abroad.
They mainly played the so-called traditional jazz, but not only.
I memorized the names of these melodies and listened to the radio versions.
Sweet Georgia Brown,Honeysuckle Rose, Ain't Misbehavin' ,Misty,Caravan etc.
I recorded from the radio on an old tape recorder and listened endlessly. I tried to play these standards on the guitar by ear.
I did all this intuitively and, of course, I also made mistakes.
These were the beginnings of my adventure with jazz.
ps.
This was almost 55 years ago

[joe2758]

I am so confused

[pamosmusic]

It's easier for me to tell you how I learned Old Tunes.
From the age of 16 I went to jazz clubs.
I listened to a lot of various bands from Poland and abroad.
They mainly played the so-called traditional jazz, but not only.
I memorized the names of these melodies and listened to the radio versions.
Sweet Georgia Brown,Honeysuckle Rose, Ain't Misbehavin' ,Misty,Caravan etc.
I recorded from the radio on an old tape recorder and listened endlessly. I tried to play these standards on the guitar by ear.
I did all this intuitively and, of course, I also made mistakes.
These were the beginnings of my adventure with jazz.
ps.
This was almost 55 years ago

This is lovely and would be a great thread to start.

[John A.]

@John, yup, I don't disagree with you. We'll never know the intent. I'm just working with what I have access to.

You mention that lead sheets could quite likely be reductions of score from a recording. However, the reverse could also be true:

starting very simply like this handwritten score:

and then adding complexity till it sounds like this:

Could some lead sheets actually be what a composer first came up with? Who knows? Nobody was keeping track which came first.

I'm not sure that "first" really matters. I mean, sure, Van Heusen (or whoever) could have written a lead sheet, or even a more complete score, but then it could have evolved for a variety of practical or aesthetic reasons in the context of the overall musical/movie development, and "last" is actually a better reflection of the composer's intent. Job security for musicologists.

Perhaps I was wrong to use the word "original" in my first post. I deeply regret bringing up this topic.

Probably, but the regret part sounds kind of melodramatic to me. If every conversation turned out exactly the way we want/expect, what would be the point of conversation? And if one of the outcomes is someone else appearing to be obnoxious, that's on them, not you.

[Christian Miller]

@John, yup, I don't disagree with you. We'll never know the intent. I'm just working with what I have access to.

You mention that lead sheets could quite likely be reductions of score from a recording. However, the reverse could also be true:

starting very simply like this handwritten score:

and then adding complexity till it sounds like this:

Could some lead sheets actually be what a composer first came up with? Who knows? Nobody was keeping track which came first.

I believe Gustav Mahler started with a piano score and then orchestrated from there.

IIRC Ravel suggested his student Vaughan Wiliams compose at the piano rather than straight to the score

"Sans le piano on ne peut pas inventer des nouvelles harmonies" - "Without the piano, one cannot invent new harmonies."

So it clearly wasn't unknown in the orchestral world to go from piano/short score to full orchestration in one's writing.

-----

@Christian, bruh you'll love these!

Monk was freaking nu-metal even before the late 1990s!
(the chord being played in this video is a typical nu-metal sound Linkin Park, P.O.D., Korn loved)

Well, you've ruined it for me now.;-) I was from the trash/death generation (I'm very old.)

But yes. The piano double stops on the A section are way hip as well.

If you are interested in some more weird jazz that sounds a bit like proto-metal, this one is fun in the B section:

1st recording of Round Midnight...

It's all there on the records man. Really all we YouTubers should be doing is telling people to listen to the records. We are just monetising our listening.

[brent.h]

Ok here's what I worked out by ear and slowing down:

A section

B | C° | C#- | D°
D#-, F#- | E | D#+ | G#7b9

B section

C#-9 | E-maj7 | B | A#-7, D#7
G#- | C#7 | C#-7 | C#-7, E-maj7

A section

B | C° | C#- | D°
D#-, F#- | E | D#+ | G#7b9

C section

C#-9 | E-maj7 | B, G#-11 | A6, G#7
C#-7, C#-6, G#7b9, C#- | F#7b9 | B, E9 | B

-------

The exciting parts to me are in bold.

Bars 5 and 21: Dude wtf. This is like catching a rare pokemon in the wild or something for a jazz standard. iii to v movement! Chromatic Mediant, yes?

Bar 29: Nice contrary motion (try playing at 9th fret)

Bar 30: First time seeing some kind of V7 in the song. Piano does ascending diminished arpeggio

Bar 31: Reminds me of first two bluesy bars of Lady Be Good

[Christian Miller]

Van Heusen (or whoever) could have written a lead sheet

I don't think anyone wrote lead sheets back then.

As to the broader point, it depends on the music. We aren't for the most part talking about Strauss or Debussy here. We are talking about songs (and sometimes themes) that are later orchestrated in various combinations for music theatre. Bear in mind additionally that arrangers/orchestrators and songwriters were (and are) often different people - especially in the case of music theater. So, authorship does get a bit muddled sometimes. GASB songs were almost always written and, most often, played at the piano outside of shows.

Films scores are obviously a bit different, though for the main part it's the song from the movie, not the film score per se that ends up in the repertoire and once again the orchestrator and composers may be different. That said, obvious counterexamples including Stella, On Green Dolphin Street, Invitation and the Theme from Exodus, but in these cases we have themes, and of course themes themselves are subject to different presentations and orchestrations within a score. You hear two of them back to back in the Stella score. Of course, Stella is explicitly heard diegetically on piano in the film.

If nothing else, any set of changes you see for a tune can teach you more about it, even if it has nothing to do with the composer, or just plain sucks.

I think it's good to check out different versions of a song. There's always things to learn.

Probably, but the regret part sounds kind of melodramatic to me. If every conversation turned out exactly the way we want/expect, what would be the point of conversation?
And if one of the outcomes is someone else appearing to be obnoxious, that's on them, not you.

I think JGO frequently demonstrates that a conversation can both not turn out how one expects, and also be entirely obnoxious and pointless as well. And I intend to go on demonstrating this in my posts.

[Christian Miller]

Ok here's what I worked out by ear and slowing down:

A section

B | C° | C#- | D°
D#-, F#- | E | D#+ | G#7b9

B section

C#-9 | E-maj7 | B | A#-7, D#7
G#- | C#7 | C#-7 | C#-7, E-maj7

A section

B | C° | C#- | D°
D#-, F#- | E | D#+ | G#7b9

C section

C#-9 | E-maj7 | B, G#-11 | A6, G#7
C#-7, C#-6, G#7b9, C#- | F#7b9 | B, E9 | B

-------

The exciting parts to me are in bold.

Bars 5 and 21: Dude wtf. This is like catching a rare pokemon in the wild or something for a jazz standard. iii to v movement! Chromatic Mediant, yes?

Bar 29: Nice contrary motion (try playing at 9th fret)

Bar 30: First time seeing some kind of V7 in the song. Piano does ascending diminished arpeggio

Bar 31: Reminds me of first two bluesy bars of Lady Be Good

The counter melodies in the orchestra I what I most often take away from these Hollywood arrangements.

[brent.h]

The counter melodies in the orchestra I what I most often take away from these Hollywood arrangements.

actually not a bad idea for a new thread..

a guitaristic playthrough of the movements/countermelodies of arrangements

[Christian Miller]

It's easier for me to tell you how I learned Old Tunes.
From the age of 16 I went to jazz clubs.
I listened to a lot of various bands from Poland and abroad.
They mainly played the so-called traditional jazz, but not only.
I memorized the names of these melodies and listened to the radio versions.
Sweet Georgia Brown,Honeysuckle Rose, Ain't Misbehavin' ,Misty,Caravan etc.
I recorded from the radio on an old tape recorder and listened endlessly. I tried to play these standards on the guitar by ear.
I did all this intuitively and, of course, I also made mistakes.
These were the beginnings of my adventure with jazz.
ps.
This was almost 55 years ago

I think what Peter is suggesting is that you can both learn songs by ear and also check out old sheet music to see what you can learn about songs. There's no reason to dismiss either.

As I say, until a few years ago I tended to just learn jazz versions by ear, and that's still my main approach to learning tunes. But, I've become more interested in song sheets over time. If nothing else, it's a lot easier to find them now than a few years ago.

It's not uncommon for musicians who are interested in the deep recesses of the GASB repertoire to dig into old sheet music like this. Peter Bernstein, Michael Kanan, Brad Mehldau (he said of Bernstein - "Pete was the first musician I met who would make periodic pilgrimages to the New York Public Library to get the original sheet music for, say, an Irving Berlin tune.") and loads of others all do it, as well as players on my local scene. Here's Ethan Iverson's thoughts on it.

Original Sheet Music of Two Dozen Jazz Standards | DO THE M@TH

One thing Ethan says which is pertinent is:

"The sheet music is just one reference. It’s no “urtext” of a song in the manner of European classical music. Some of the composers may have been more like a folk composer, such as Irving Berlin, who apparently could not write out a piano score. Other prolific composers may not have overseen each piece of piano/vocal sheet music. More tangibly, a comparison of the sheet with a historical “straight” (non-jazz) performance on record or in a movie will show many differences. "

[joe2758]

The Dick Hyman song books often include some counter melodies

[Cunamara]

Good Luck with your improvisation over good chord changes.

Uh, because Jimmy Van Heusen didn't write good chord changes?

I'm a little sad that you don't seem to understand the benefit of looking at what the song was originally before the jazzers got their paws on it. In many cases the "good" changes in things like the Real Book are just flat out "wrong;" they're written for the convenience of bebop style playing which is not necessarily the same thing as playing music. There is a reason that a lot of these composers hated jazz interpretations of their songs.

FWIW, Peter Bernstein is well known for making a point of finding the original sheet music for songs that he wants to learn so that he can see what it was before jazz superimposed itself on it.

[kris]

I think what Peter is suggesting is that you can both learn songs by ear and also check out old sheet music to see what you can learn about songs. There's no reason to dismiss either.

As I say, until a few years ago I tended to just learn jazz versions by ear, and that's still my main approach to learning tunes. But, I've become more interested in song sheets over time. If nothing else, it's a lot easier to find them now than a few years ago.

It's not uncommon for musicians who are interested in the deep recesses of the GASB repertoire to dig into old sheet music like this. Peter Bernstein, Michael Kanan, Brad Mehldau (he said of Bernstein - "Pete was the first musician I met who would make periodic pilgrimages to the New York Public Library to get the original sheet music for, say, an Irving Berlin tune.") and loads of others all do it, as well as players on my local scene. Here's Ethan Iverson's thoughts on it.

Original Sheet Music of Two Dozen Jazz Standards | DO THE M@TH

One thing Ethan says which is pertinent is:

"The sheet music is just one reference. It’s no “urtext” of a song in the manner of European classical music. Some of the composers may have been more like a folk composer, such as Irving Berlin, who apparently could not write out a piano score. Other prolific composers may not have overseen each piece of piano/vocal sheet music. More tangibly, a comparison of the sheet with a historical “straight” (non-jazz) performance on record or in a movie will show many differences. "

Sorry Christian,
I've dealt with outstanding musicians who had a brilliant ear. They learned by listening to Coltrane, Parker, Evans, Davis, Aderley and other outstanding musicians. They didn't teach tunes, They just learned the jazz language.Most of them didn't even have a Real Book.
As far as I know, none of them looked for the version in the archives - they just played at a very high level.
I also know a musicologist - a jazzman, who searched in archives, but he was a much worse jazz musician. Talent?-I don't know.
These are my experiences with professional local musicians.

[kris]

... look at ballad:

[joe2758]

"I also know a musicologist - a jazzman, who searched in archives, but he was a much worse jazz musician. Talent?-I don't know."

Ugh I knew it was making me worse. dammit.

[joe2758]

One time I ordered the old sheet music for Stella and forgot half my jazz vocab

[kris]

Uh, because Jimmy Van Heusen didn't write good chord changes?

I'm a little sad that you don't seem to understand the benefit of looking at what the song was originally before the jazzers got their paws on it. In many cases the "good" changes in things like the Real Book are just flat out "wrong;" they're written for the convenience of bebop style playing which is not necessarily the same thing as playing music. There is a reason that a lot of these composers hated jazz interpretations of their songs.

FWIW, Peter Bernstein is well known for making a point of finding the original sheet music for songs that he wants to learn so that he can see what it was before jazz superimposed itself on it.

You're late, my friend.I have already explained it or tried to explain it.
I am a musician-jazz improviser.I'm interested in the language of jazz, not song archives.
Appreciate the work of outstanding jazzmen who adopt songs to be jazz.
I think I'm not the only one who thinks that way.
Once Miles Davis had a very bad comment from a brilliant Spanish composer that he spoiled his compositions.
Sketches of Spain-adaptation of Joaquín Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez.
The album was a huge success.
Was it a success for Miles or the composer?

[brent.h]

One time I ordered the old sheet music for Stella and forgot half my jazz vocab

bro im dead fr

legit spit take

[Christian Miller]

Sorry Christian,

You are forgiven!

I've dealt with outstanding musicians who had a brilliant ear.

Oh that's not how you meant it...

They learned by listening to Coltrane, Parker, Evans, Davis, Aderley and other outstanding musicians. They didn't teach tunes, They just learned the jazz language.Most of them didn't even have a Real Book.
As far as I know, none of them looked for the version in the archives - they just played at a very high level.
I also know a musicologist - a jazzman, who searched in archives, but he was a much worse jazz musician. Talent?-I don't know.
These are my experiences with professional local musicians.

You're sort of repeating the same thing over and over, and I kind of covered it in the last post I made, so at this point it just seems you aren't reading what I wrote.

I'll try say it again just in case I wasn't clear

You can in fact, do both when learning a song. One does not preclude the other.

You seem to be thinking I am arguing that we must study sheet music. If I was saying that, you'd be right to maintain that learning by ear is the most important thing.

BUT what I am actually saying is that it can be instructive and interesting to check out sheet music in addition to learning songs by ear. Furthermore I've linked to an article discussing this by one of NYC's leading jazz pianists. Honestly, take it or bloody leave it at this point. I'm tired.

That said, I can't help notice that in another thread you seemed to be confidently asserting that we should all learn Charlie Parker from the Omnibook and not check out his records ourselves, so .. I dunno.

Maybe you just like arguing for its own sake. If you do, I respect that, but please try and address what I actually said.

[Christian Miller]

You're late, my friend.I have already explained it or tried to explain it.
I am a musician-jazz improviser.I'm interested in the language of jazz, not song archives.
Appreciate the work of outstanding jazzmen who adopt songs to be jazz.
I think I'm not the only one who thinks that way.
Once Miles Davis had a very bad comment from a brilliant Spanish composer that he spoiled his compositions.
Sketches of Spain-adaptation of Joaquín Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez.
The album was a huge success.
Was it a success for Miles or the composer?

Eh?

Is the argument that here Gill Evans didn't first consult the original Rodrigo when writing his own arrangements? That Miles wasn't familiar with the straight version before interpreting the melodies in his own way?

[kris]

You are forgiven!

Oh that's not how you meant it...


You're sort of repeating the same thing over and over, and I kind of covered it in the last post I made, so at this point it just seems you aren't reading what I wrote.

I'll try say it again just in case I wasn't clear

You can in fact, do both when learning a song. One does not preclude the other.

You seem to be thinking I am arguing that we must study sheet music. If I was saying that, you'd be right to maintain that learning by ear is the most important thing.

BUT what I am actually saying is that it can be instructive and interesting to check out sheet music in addition to learning songs by ear. Furthermore I've linked to an article discussing this by one of NYC's leading jazz pianists. Honestly, take it or bloody leave it at this point. I'm tired.

That said, I can't help notice that in another thread you seemed to be confidently asserting that we should all learn Charlie Parker from the Omnibook and not check out his records ourselves, so .. I dunno.

Maybe you just like arguing for its own sake. If you do, I respect that, but please try and address what I actually said.

Now you are the one who manipulates my statements.
I didn't say anything about the Omnibook you wrote.
Or you misunderstood me.
I said that the Omnibook is a kind of methodological exercise-starting material.
You practice with Parker's original recording... Small mistakes that you can correct are not important. You practice at a slowt empo piece by piece and adapt to the specifics of the guitar.
Good Buy
ps.
If you want to hear it, I'll say:
Omnibook-it's for less talented musicians like me.

[kris]

There are also outstanding blind musicians who do not look in archives... true. They are focused on listening and playing.

[grahambop]

Once Miles Davis had a very bad comment from a brilliant Spanish composer that he spoiled his compositions.
Sketches of Spain-adaptation of Joaquín Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez.
The album was a huge success.
Was it a success for Miles or the composer?

I read somewhere that Rodrigo intensely disliked the album, but when the royalty cheques started to pour in, he changed his mind!

[pamosmusic]

There are also outstanding blind musicians who do not look in archives... true. They are focused on listening and playing.

Put this one in a museum