Something interesting about the chorus of 'It Could Happen To You' (sheet music)

[GuyBoden]

Yeah 100%. Barry would have been with you ‘the great composers did not write II to V to I.’

A lot of the song sheets have such elegant writing even if it’s an old fashioned style that might sound corny to those used to the modern changes - not that that’s an issue if you play old fashioned music (which sometimes I do.)

Chord symbols are really lossy. A good jazz player can take them and make them into real harmony/counterpoint, but by themselves they are really limited, and even misleading.

I think I first realised that trying to make reductions of baroque accompaniments over 20 years ago. I think the realisation of how chord symbols don’t seem to fit pushed me eventually in the direction of learning figures and counterpoint. It’s therefore interesting to come back to the standards repertoire with that perspective and find that’s there’s way more common ground than I would have expected.

And then you have people like Bill Evans and Jobim.

Some people aren’t really into that sort of thing and see the song as simply a background or mould for improvisation and that’s fine. As I get older I get more and more tired of my own noise (no really! ;-) and start to find more and more inspiration in songs and other compositions.

"Chord Symbols" are a guide and do make life easier. Especially for the hobbyist players like myself and those with that fixated other world "Real Book Stare" whilst playing.

[Christian Miller]

"Chord Symbols" are a guide and do make life easier. Especially for the hobbyist players like myself and those with that fixated other world "Real Book Stare" whilst playing.

We all use chord symbols?

The thing is to realise that you do need to bring something to the party because none of this is ‘paint by numbers’ and develop a repertoire of things you can play. Just as you would with soloing.

It’s also good to learn some songs.

I don’t see either thing as the preserve of the professional musicians.

(OTOH this isn’t really much to do with the OP)

‘The Real Book’ stare is real. I do it. Sometimes people put charts for a song I know directly in front of me and I have to tilt the screen away from me because I will just stare at it and read it like I’ve never heard it before lol. I always end up paying less attention to what other players are doing. The same thing happens if you ever have a horn player go into ‘reading mode’, it’s like their ears shut off.

As Hal Galper put it, tune into a news channel on TV and try reading the headline thing scrolling at the bottom while concentrating on what the newsreader says. You can’t do it!

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[GuyBoden]

‘The Real Book’ stare is real. I do it.

Pro's like yourself, usually play at a very high level whilst in the other world "Real Book stare".

But, what about those RB chord changes to "It could Happen to You"?

[joe2758]

BH recommended getting the original sheet music that came in like those single song folders. I get them for every song I do a deep dive into. They are on ebay

edit: well hot damn, i wish I knew about the website in the OP!!! that's really great

[kris]

Kris, do what you like.

The point I'm making is that the composer delayed writing an Eb7. Why? We will never know.

But Jimmy Van Heusen is probably teaching us something very important by delaying the sound of a V7: restraint.

Restraint is such good technique in storytelling, no? It means to not give your audience and listener everything at once, but you feed them just enough to make them want more.

This lesson for me is a good one because Jimmy Van Heusen is saying, "Brent, why don't you try skipping V7 for your improvisation?"

That's a wonderful idea: just ignoring an important chord for the majority of a solo, then at the very last moment, you put it there. It is like thinking, "Hmmm. How about I don't play the I (one) chord the entire solo?" (Now that I think about it, my personal hero, Lester Young, used to IGNORE the V so often in his solos.)

Kris, since you know so much, play so well, have so much experience, and get so much applause from audience everywhere, maybe my post about this song is not for you.

Maybe Jimmy Van Heusen can't teach you anything because you are a better improvisor and jazz musician than he is.

It is a pity to hear such philosophical arguments.
Better improviser... And what is sport?
It's funny and sad at the same time.
Good Luck with your improvisation over good chord changes.

[joe2758]

Maybe some people want to make their own substitutions from the original instead of creating substitutions of substitutions. Maybe they are trying to be MORE creative

[kris]

Miles Davis and Thelonius Monk also had different visions and couldn't get along with each other – they argued.
Do not worry.
Best
Kris

[Christian Miller]

BH recommended getting the original sheet music that came in like those single song folders. I get them for every song I do a deep dive into. They are on ebay

edit: well hot damn, i wish I knew about the website in the OP!!! that's really great

Save you some pennies. Sheet music can be a cool thing to colllect through


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[Mick-7]

Do you have a better source for the original sheet music and piano arrangement or are you going to post more lead sheets?

Edit: sorry don’t mean to be snippy. I think Brett is doing something I do which is to refer to the original sheet music before tracing the development of jazz versions. But I shouldn’t speak for him. It’s just a bit annoying when people miss the point.

I did not want to post copyrighted material, the copyright has probably expired on the 95 year old lead sheet that brent shared. I agree that it's a good idea to consult the composer's original chord changes if you can find them. But the harmony of pop songs is often primitive compared to the jazz adaptations of them - simple triads, etc. - and I've found that I usually prefer the more modern harmonic interpretations. Don't know about you but I'd rather listen to Brad Mehldau's take on an old standard than Teddy Wilsons version.

To brent, sorry, I would not count on a piano arrangement from a British publishing house to be a great source.

Huh, why? As in, do non-American publishers tamper with American composers' notes? Not being sarcastic or caustic here, but is it really a thing?

Yes, Brits just love to tamper with American composers chord changes, they started doing that around 1776 for some reason.

But seriously, it's not that the old lead sheet was British but that it is a popular piano arrangement of the song, which may not be an accurate transcription of the composers work. I noticed some odd chord choices, but I'd have to play it.

[AllanAllen]

This is a drug, for the world, to give worms to ex girlfriends. You just don't get it here...

[kris]

I don't know if it's not better to teach at masterful performances of jazz standards by artists instead of looking for the first historical editions of composers.
Maybe for historical reasons it makes sense.
But is it necessary....?

[AllanAllen]

I don't know if it's not better to teach at masterful performances of jazz standards by artists instead of looking for the first historical editions of composers.
Maybe for historical reasons it makes sense.
But is it necessary....?

It’s not necessary, but coming into a thread about historical changes and talking about lead sheets is a bit like ordering a cheeseburger at a sushi bar.

[pamosmusic]

I was motivated to check out how the original tune sounded after seeing Guy's take on it.

I'm only going to be talking about the chorus, not verse, in the original sheet music.

I just noticed that a plain V7 chord doesn't actually appear until bar 30 and of the chorus! I don't think I've come across a tune written in a way that the V7 is so delayed.

The key is in Ab.

A section

Ab | A° | Bb- | B°
Ab/C | Db | C+ | CØ, F7b9

B section

Bb-9 | Db-maj7 | Ab | G-7, C7
F-, Db/F | Bb7 | Bb-7 | Bb-7, A7

A section

Ab | A° | Bb- | B°
Ab/C | Db | C+ | CØ, F7

C section

Bb-9 | Db-maj7 | Ab | Gb6, C7
Bb-7 | Bb-7, Eb7 | Ab, F-11 | Bb-7, Eb+7


I'm aware that other chords like Db-maj7 and A7 can act as a stand in for the Eb7 functionally because of voice-leading, theory etc.

But isn't it remarkable that the Eb7 sound is only heard so late in the sheet music?

It creates another kind of 'release' to my ears.

Edit 1: Do have a look at the sheet music in the hyperlink above before commenting.

Edit 2: I don't care about the functions or substitutions. The point I'm trying to make is how late the composer brings Eb7 into the song. It's like he's writing the tune with the some kind of intention of avoiding the Eb7, which is amazing.

Interesting … never noticed it. I think the lead sheet and some bop versions put the V chord in place of that bar 10 iv. Which is probably why I never noticed it.

The iv is way cooler though.

I wonder if there’s an artistic reason to put it off so long. What’s the lyric at some of those big would be cadence points?

[pamosmusic]

The augmented chord is the special sauce of pre-bop harmony.

I think Peter Amos got told off once by Brad Shepik for playing the diminished chords and not the minor II V’s because it meant he learned it from the real book.

You’d could “well ackshually” him on that one haha. But I think the II V’s were played more by the boppers.


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WHY YES I DID.

I’m going to wager he knows the original changes but was very confident I hadn’t gone back to the phonograph when I’d learned it.

[pamosmusic]

To brent, sorry, I would not count on a piano arrangement from a British publishing house to be a great source.

True. You can’t trust the Brits.

[pamosmusic]

Is this a jazz guitar forum or an archive of original compositional versions?
There are a lot of very good jazz versions – very good sounding and fun to improvise in them.
I played this tune in various arrangements-chord changes.
I liked them all.There is probably no need to look for jazz in the composer's historical editions.
I know that sometimes there are completely different chord changes. But that's the creativity of jazz music.
If someone likes to play from piano publishers, it's just their choice.

I wonder where the original jazz guys learned the tunes from?

Probably the real book.

[pamosmusic]

But the harmony of pop songs is often primitive compared to the jazz adaptations of them -

whoooaaa … hard disagree

[pamosmusic]

Mick, it feels like I'm pointing at the moon, but you're focused on my finger and how defective it is. I think you have completely missed the point of this entire thread.

I'm a non-American and a non-jazz student who's coming to this music with what little resources I can find online, and it feels like you're shitting on my effort to share something interesting as a hobbyist with your pedantry.

Since you like to nitpick so much (you've done this to me on multiple occasions and even Jon Raney noticed this tendency of yours), why don't you post a better source than what I provided? As in the real original score by the composer that's not the dumpster-fire, mass-market shit I posted?

This is discouraging, and I regret sharing what I enjoy/found.

This will be the last time I talk about chords.

Brent, the five or six posts about your score amount to an interesting thread.

Ignoring the goobers is a learned skill. It takes time. I find that calling them goobers helps actually.

As a proper jazz dork, I can tell you that a lot of people start doing this work fairly late in their journey (myself included) and across the board, they wish they’d started doing it sooner.

[pamosmusic]

Not my business one way or the other.

[Mick-7]

why don't you post a better source than what I provided? As in the real original score by the composer that's not the dumpster-fire, mass-market shit I posted?

Pretty sure that "dumpster fires" were not a thing in 1943. I answered this question earlier, "I did not want to post copyrighted material" (we're not supposed to do that) but I'll compare the chords and get back to you. Sorry I irritated you, they said you liked peanut butter - but apparently not spread on your lead sheet.

[pamosmusic]

As someone who is not too terribly interested in pre war popular music and pretty much just plays jazz …

This is a useful endeavor for me, in large part, because the changes often differ meaningfully from the usual jazz changes and particularly at cadences. The old tunes tend to have a much much richer harmonic vocabulary and checking out the way that they get, say, from IV back to I can broaden an improvisers vocabulary in a way that extended meditations on the ii-V-I doesn’t.

[Christian Miller]

Brent, the five or six posts about your score amount to an interesting thread.

Ignoring the goobers is a learned skill. It takes time. I find that calling them goobers helps actually.

As a proper jazz dork, I can tell you that a lot of people start doing this work fairly late in their journey (myself included) and across the board, they wish they’d started doing it sooner.

Yep I used to scoff at it my very self.

Then I learned Peter Bernstein did it, and then it seemed like a good idea all of a sudden.


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[Christian Miller]

Interesting … never noticed it. I think the lead sheet and some bop versions put the V chord in place of that bar 10 iv. Which is probably why I never noticed it.

The iv is way cooler though.

I wonder if there’s an artistic reason to put it off so long. What’s the lyric at some of those big would be cadence points?

That’s weird, I always played the iv-. I couldn’t tell you where I picked that up though. I think I listened to the Miles version a lot?


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[pamosmusic]

That’s weird, I always played the iv-. I couldn’t tell you where I picked that up though. I think I listened to the Miles version a lot?


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iReal does. It has the bVII as an alternate change though.

[kris]

I wonder where the original jazz guys learned the tunes from?

Probably the real book.

I am also original jazz guy...:-)...or I try to be...?
Besides, jazz musicians are also composers of their solos.
There are jazz musicians who can hear brilliantly and learn from the recordings or old recordings.
Not a single real composer can envy the ear of outstanding jazzmen.