Something interesting about the chorus of 'It Could Happen To You' (sheet music)

[kris]

As someone who is not too terribly interested in pre war popular music and pretty much just plays jazz …

This is a useful endeavor for me, in large part, because the changes often differ meaningfully from the usual jazz changes and particularly at cadences. The old tunes tend to have a much much richer harmonic vocabulary and checking out the way that they get, say, from IV back to I can broaden an improvisers vocabulary in a way that extended meditations on the ii-V-I doesn’t.

And do you have an idea for tunes composed by outstanding jazz musicians?
Maybe there are versions with other chord changes somewhere in the archives?
That would be very interesting for everyone.
I am very interested in the work of Thelonius Monk.

[kris]

As someone who is not too terribly interested in pre war popular music and pretty much just plays jazz …

This is a useful endeavor for me, in large part, because the changes often differ meaningfully from the usual jazz changes and particularly at cadences. The old tunes tend to have a much much richer harmonic vocabulary and checking out the way that they get, say, from IV back to I can broaden an improvisers vocabulary in a way that extended meditations on the ii-V-I doesn’t.

Search until you find that really correct and original chord.
There are so many wonderful recordings on the Internet that it's enough for me.
I also have a collection of over a thousand jazz records.
I've already shown it with the tune Summertime/thread/ – how many brilliant jazz versions there are.

[pamosmusic]

Search until you find that really correct and original chord.
There are so many wonderful recordings on the Internet that it's enough for me.
I also have a collection of over a thousand jazz records.
I've already shown it with the tune Summertime/thread/ – how many brilliant jazz versions there are.

Kris, I have to be honest here. I really don’t understand the objection.

Is anyone here saying that they don’t look for changes in jazz recordings? Did anyone say they can’t find enough jazz recordings?

Honestly it sounds like you’re being stubborn for the sake of it.

[pamosmusic]

And do you have an idea for tunes composed by outstanding jazz musicians?
Maybe there are versions with other chord changes somewhere in the archives?
That would be very interesting for everyone.
I am very interested in the work of Thelonius Monk.

Sure man. You’d listen to the tunes.

Question:

If you want to learn Well You Needn’t, do you listen to Monks version? What about Miles? Monk thought Miles screwed up his changes.

So if it’s permissible to listen to the composers version of a jazz tune, as well as someone who innovated on it, then why are you so opposed to doing the same with a Tin Pan Alley tune?

[pamosmusic]

I am also original jazz guy...:-)...or I try to be...?
Besides, jazz musicians are also composers of their solos.
There are jazz musicians who can hear brilliantly and learn from the recordings or old recordings.
Not a single real composer can envy the ear of outstanding jazzmen.

Where did Miles and Parker and Ahamad Jamal and Thelonious Monk learn these old tunes?

[John A.]

I was motivated to check out how the original tune sounded after seeing Guy's take on it.

I'm only going to be talking about the chorus, not verse, in the original sheet music.

I just noticed that a plain V7 chord doesn't actually appear until bar 30 and of the chorus! I don't think I've come across a tune written in a way that the V7 is so delayed.

The key is in Ab.

A section

Ab | A° | Bb- | B°
Ab/C | Db | C+ | CØ, F7b9

B section

Bb-9 | Db-maj7 | Ab | G-7, C7
F-, Db/F | Bb7 | Bb-7 | Bb-7, A7

A section

Ab | A° | Bb- | B°
Ab/C | Db | C+ | CØ, F7

C section

Bb-9 | Db-maj7 | Ab | Gb6, C7
Bb-7 | Bb-7, Eb7 | Ab, F-11 | Bb-7, Eb+7


I'm aware that other chords like Db-maj7 and A7 can act as a stand in for the Eb7 functionally because of voice-leading, theory etc.

But isn't it remarkable that the Eb7 sound is only heard so late in the sheet music?

It creates another kind of 'release' to my ears.

Edit 1: Do have a look at the sheet music in the hyperlink above before commenting.

Edit 2: I don't care about the functions or substitutions. The point I'm trying to make is how late the composer brings Eb7 into the song. It's like he's writing the tune with the some kind of intention of avoiding the Eb7, which is amazing.

I suspect this isn't the original sheet music and changes, but is instead a reduction/re-harm a transcriber did for purposes of publishing the song distinctly from the full score of the film. It was probably also transposed for purposes of fitting in the range of most female singers. Here's the version of the song from the movie referenced in the sheet music:

It's in B, and it doesn't have the turnaround at the end (it ends on the I chord). I didn't do a full transcription, but playing along with it, it seems pretty close to the iReal version I have, as well as how it gets done in my neck of the woods. It's possible that elsewhere in the movie it's done differently (and perhaps the same as those changes), which is pretty common in musicals. It's also possible that the movie is a re-harm of Van Heusen's original score, which might indeed be what you posted. Tough to say. I would just look at what you posted as an interesting variant and not infer to much about Van Heusen's intent.

In general, it's pretty difficult to be definitive about "original score" with GASB songs. What's typically in the original musical or movie is a lot more complicated than a lead sheet or published song book, and both of those often entail somebody reducing a score from a recording. That's inherently a matter of interpretation and/or re-harmonization, and sometimes out-and-out alteration to turn it into something that people can sing at a party.

[AllanAllen]

Mick, it feels like I'm pointing at the moon, but you're focused on my finger and how defective it is. I think you have completely missed the point of this entire thread.

I'm a non-American and a non-jazz student who's coming to this music with what little resources I can find online, and it feels like you're shitting on my effort to share something interesting as a hobbyist with your pedantry.

Since you like to nitpick so much (you've done this to me on multiple occasions and even Jon Raney noticed this tendency of yours), why don't you post a better source than what I provided? As in the real original score by the composer that's not the dumpster-fire, mass-market shit I posted?

This is discouraging, and I regret sharing what I enjoy/found.

This will be the last time I talk about chords.

Well, this sucks to read I thought the thread was cool. I'm working on Cherokee and noticed some people go to Ebm instead of Ab9. I saw Christian did a video about Cherokee a decade ago, but I haven't watched it yet.

[kris]

Kris, I have to be honest here. I really don’t understand the objection.

Is anyone here saying that they don’t look for changes in jazz recordings? Did anyone say they can’t find enough jazz recordings?

Honestly it sounds like you’re being stubborn for the sake of it.

I don't understand what I'm supposed to be stubborn about.
Please read carefully from the beginning of everyone's statements.

[Christian Miller]

Sure man. You’d listen to the tunes.

Question:

If you want to learn Well You Needn’t, do you listen to Monks version? What about Miles? Monk thought Miles screwed up his changes.

So if it’s permissible to listen to the composers version of a jazz tune, as well as someone who innovated on it, then why are you so opposed to doing the same with a Tin Pan Alley tune?

Mike innovated copiously over Monk haha. Then it soaked into the carpet and there’s no way of getting it out. Especially that cut …

Monks a funny one because not one of his contemporaries takes him quite seriously as a composer. I mean they all know he’s hip, and they all like the melodies but when they play something like Round Midnight they sand down the brilliant corners and make it all a bit more congruent with the (then) current practice of the music. Same as they would with a standard really.

I think it’s only with retrospect that we start to hear than Monk not only heard everything he played (and indeed plays it all repeatedly often exactly the same) - and now so many decades later his music still sounds outrageously original and timeless - that we start to consider that we should try to play these things exactly as he intended. Which is NOT easy.

Tbh the main reason I want to do this is not because I think we need to play everything verbatim, but because I really can’t think of anything better than what monk did.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

I don't understand what I'm supposed to be stubborn about.
Please read carefully from the beginning of everyone's statements.

lol

I did. It’s just not clear what the problem is or why you’re here.

[kris]

Sure man. You’d listen to the tunes.

Question:

If you want to learn Well You Needn’t, do you listen to Monks version? What about Miles? Monk thought Miles screwed up his changes.

So if it’s permissible to listen to the composers version of a jazz tune, as well as someone who innovated on it, then why are you so opposed to doing the same with a Tin Pan Alley tune?

I would like to know Monk's original - what he wrote on a piece of paper - that's all.
Monk said that his compositions were badly played.
It is probably about some nuances in musical notation.

[kris]

Where did Miles and Parker and Ahamad Jamal and Thelonious Monk learn these old tunes?

And do you know the answer....?
Maybe they listened to the radio if it worked then...
Songs that have become jazz standards.
Maybe they learned from their older friends by listening to them in clubs?
Real Books probably didn't exist then.Maybe there were songs published in books with piano accompaniment.

Do you have any interesting ideas?
ps.
Maybe mother, father, grandparents sang popular songs over the cradle of future musicians.

[kris]

lol

I did. It’s just not clear what the problem is or why you’re here.

This is very unpleasant.

[pamosmusic]

This is very unpleasant.

Well yeah I’d agree with you there.

But I was being serious. You don’t think it’s a worthwhile pursuit, so it’s not clear why you’re here.

[pamosmusic]

And do you know the answer....?
Maybe they listened to the radio if it worked then...
Songs that have become jazz standards.
Maybe they learned from their older friends by listening to them in clubs?
Real Books probably didn't exist then.Maybe there were songs published in books with piano accompaniment.

Do you have any interesting ideas?
ps.
Maybe mother, father, grandparents sang popular songs over the cradle of future musicians.

Its almost like you’re saying they learned them from varied sources, including perhaps, but not limited to, the original pop recordings and music.

[kris]

Its almost like you’re saying they learned them from varied sources, including perhaps, but not limited to, the original pop recordings and music.

It's easier for me to tell you how I learned Old Tunes.
From the age of 16 I went to jazz clubs.
I listened to a lot of various bands from Poland and abroad.
They mainly played the so-called traditional jazz, but not only.
I memorized the names of these melodies and listened to the radio versions.
Sweet Georgia Brown,Honeysuckle Rose, Ain't Misbehavin' ,Misty,Caravan etc.
I recorded from the radio on an old tape recorder and listened endlessly. I tried to play these standards on the guitar by ear.
I did all this intuitively and, of course, I also made mistakes.
These were the beginnings of my adventure with jazz.
ps.
This was almost 55 years ago

[joe2758]

I am so confused

[pamosmusic]

It's easier for me to tell you how I learned Old Tunes.
From the age of 16 I went to jazz clubs.
I listened to a lot of various bands from Poland and abroad.
They mainly played the so-called traditional jazz, but not only.
I memorized the names of these melodies and listened to the radio versions.
Sweet Georgia Brown,Honeysuckle Rose, Ain't Misbehavin' ,Misty,Caravan etc.
I recorded from the radio on an old tape recorder and listened endlessly. I tried to play these standards on the guitar by ear.
I did all this intuitively and, of course, I also made mistakes.
These were the beginnings of my adventure with jazz.
ps.
This was almost 55 years ago

This is lovely and would be a great thread to start.

[John A.]

@John, yup, I don't disagree with you. We'll never know the intent. I'm just working with what I have access to.

You mention that lead sheets could quite likely be reductions of score from a recording. However, the reverse could also be true:

starting very simply like this handwritten score:

and then adding complexity till it sounds like this:

Could some lead sheets actually be what a composer first came up with? Who knows? Nobody was keeping track which came first.

I'm not sure that "first" really matters. I mean, sure, Van Heusen (or whoever) could have written a lead sheet, or even a more complete score, but then it could have evolved for a variety of practical or aesthetic reasons in the context of the overall musical/movie development, and "last" is actually a better reflection of the composer's intent. Job security for musicologists.

Perhaps I was wrong to use the word "original" in my first post. I deeply regret bringing up this topic.

Probably, but the regret part sounds kind of melodramatic to me. If every conversation turned out exactly the way we want/expect, what would be the point of conversation? And if one of the outcomes is someone else appearing to be obnoxious, that's on them, not you.

[Christian Miller]

@John, yup, I don't disagree with you. We'll never know the intent. I'm just working with what I have access to.

You mention that lead sheets could quite likely be reductions of score from a recording. However, the reverse could also be true:

starting very simply like this handwritten score:

and then adding complexity till it sounds like this:

Could some lead sheets actually be what a composer first came up with? Who knows? Nobody was keeping track which came first.

I believe Gustav Mahler started with a piano score and then orchestrated from there.

IIRC Ravel suggested his student Vaughan Wiliams compose at the piano rather than straight to the score

"Sans le piano on ne peut pas inventer des nouvelles harmonies" - "Without the piano, one cannot invent new harmonies."

So it clearly wasn't unknown in the orchestral world to go from piano/short score to full orchestration in one's writing.

-----

@Christian, bruh you'll love these!

Monk was freaking nu-metal even before the late 1990s!
(the chord being played in this video is a typical nu-metal sound Linkin Park, P.O.D., Korn loved)

Well, you've ruined it for me now.;-) I was from the trash/death generation (I'm very old.)

But yes. The piano double stops on the A section are way hip as well.

If you are interested in some more weird jazz that sounds a bit like proto-metal, this one is fun in the B section:

1st recording of Round Midnight...

It's all there on the records man. Really all we YouTubers should be doing is telling people to listen to the records. We are just monetising our listening.

[Christian Miller]

Van Heusen (or whoever) could have written a lead sheet

I don't think anyone wrote lead sheets back then.

As to the broader point, it depends on the music. We aren't for the most part talking about Strauss or Debussy here. We are talking about songs (and sometimes themes) that are later orchestrated in various combinations for music theatre. Bear in mind additionally that arrangers/orchestrators and songwriters were (and are) often different people - especially in the case of music theater. So, authorship does get a bit muddled sometimes. GASB songs were almost always written and, most often, played at the piano outside of shows.

Films scores are obviously a bit different, though for the main part it's the song from the movie, not the film score per se that ends up in the repertoire and once again the orchestrator and composers may be different. That said, obvious counterexamples including Stella, On Green Dolphin Street, Invitation and the Theme from Exodus, but in these cases we have themes, and of course themes themselves are subject to different presentations and orchestrations within a score. You hear two of them back to back in the Stella score. Of course, Stella is explicitly heard diegetically on piano in the film.

If nothing else, any set of changes you see for a tune can teach you more about it, even if it has nothing to do with the composer, or just plain sucks.

I think it's good to check out different versions of a song. There's always things to learn.

Probably, but the regret part sounds kind of melodramatic to me. If every conversation turned out exactly the way we want/expect, what would be the point of conversation?
And if one of the outcomes is someone else appearing to be obnoxious, that's on them, not you.

I think JGO frequently demonstrates that a conversation can both not turn out how one expects, and also be entirely obnoxious and pointless as well. And I intend to go on demonstrating this in my posts.

[Christian Miller]

Ok here's what I worked out by ear and slowing down:

A section

B | C° | C#- | D°
D#-, F#- | E | D#+ | G#7b9

B section

C#-9 | E-maj7 | B | A#-7, D#7
G#- | C#7 | C#-7 | C#-7, E-maj7

A section

B | C° | C#- | D°
D#-, F#- | E | D#+ | G#7b9

C section

C#-9 | E-maj7 | B, G#-11 | A6, G#7
C#-7, C#-6, G#7b9, C#- | F#7b9 | B, E9 | B

-------

The exciting parts to me are in bold.

Bars 5 and 21: Dude wtf. This is like catching a rare pokemon in the wild or something for a jazz standard. iii to v movement! Chromatic Mediant, yes?

Bar 29: Nice contrary motion (try playing at 9th fret)

Bar 30: First time seeing some kind of V7 in the song. Piano does ascending diminished arpeggio

Bar 31: Reminds me of first two bluesy bars of Lady Be Good

The counter melodies in the orchestra I what I most often take away from these Hollywood arrangements.

[Christian Miller]

It's easier for me to tell you how I learned Old Tunes.
From the age of 16 I went to jazz clubs.
I listened to a lot of various bands from Poland and abroad.
They mainly played the so-called traditional jazz, but not only.
I memorized the names of these melodies and listened to the radio versions.
Sweet Georgia Brown,Honeysuckle Rose, Ain't Misbehavin' ,Misty,Caravan etc.
I recorded from the radio on an old tape recorder and listened endlessly. I tried to play these standards on the guitar by ear.
I did all this intuitively and, of course, I also made mistakes.
These were the beginnings of my adventure with jazz.
ps.
This was almost 55 years ago

I think what Peter is suggesting is that you can both learn songs by ear and also check out old sheet music to see what you can learn about songs. There's no reason to dismiss either.

As I say, until a few years ago I tended to just learn jazz versions by ear, and that's still my main approach to learning tunes. But, I've become more interested in song sheets over time. If nothing else, it's a lot easier to find them now than a few years ago.

It's not uncommon for musicians who are interested in the deep recesses of the GASB repertoire to dig into old sheet music like this. Peter Bernstein, Michael Kanan, Brad Mehldau (he said of Bernstein - "Pete was the first musician I met who would make periodic pilgrimages to the New York Public Library to get the original sheet music for, say, an Irving Berlin tune.") and loads of others all do it, as well as players on my local scene. Here's Ethan Iverson's thoughts on it.

Original Sheet Music of Two Dozen Jazz Standards | DO THE M@TH

One thing Ethan says which is pertinent is:

"The sheet music is just one reference. It’s no “urtext” of a song in the manner of European classical music. Some of the composers may have been more like a folk composer, such as Irving Berlin, who apparently could not write out a piano score. Other prolific composers may not have overseen each piece of piano/vocal sheet music. More tangibly, a comparison of the sheet with a historical “straight” (non-jazz) performance on record or in a movie will show many differences. "

[joe2758]

The Dick Hyman song books often include some counter melodies

[Cunamara]

Good Luck with your improvisation over good chord changes.

Uh, because Jimmy Van Heusen didn't write good chord changes?

I'm a little sad that you don't seem to understand the benefit of looking at what the song was originally before the jazzers got their paws on it. In many cases the "good" changes in things like the Real Book are just flat out "wrong;" they're written for the convenience of bebop style playing which is not necessarily the same thing as playing music. There is a reason that a lot of these composers hated jazz interpretations of their songs.

FWIW, Peter Bernstein is well known for making a point of finding the original sheet music for songs that he wants to learn so that he can see what it was before jazz superimposed itself on it.