Something interesting about the chorus of 'It Could Happen To You' (sheet music)

[brent.h]

Mick, it feels like I'm pointing at the moon, but you're focused on my finger and how defective it is. I think you have completely missed the point of this entire thread.

I'm a non-American and a non-jazz student who's coming to this music with what little resources I can find online, and it feels like you're shitting on my effort to share something interesting as a hobbyist with your pedantry.

Since you like to nitpick so much (you've done this to me on multiple occasions and even Jon Raney noticed this tendency of yours), why don't you post a better source than what I provided? As in the real original score by the composer that's not the dumpster-fire, mass-market shit I posted?

This is discouraging, and I regret sharing what I enjoy/found.

This will be the last time I talk about chords.

[pamosmusic]

Mick, it feels like I'm pointing at the moon, but you're focused on my finger and how defective it is. I think you have completely missed the point of this entire thread.

I'm a non-American and a non-jazz student who's coming to this music with what little resources I can find online, and it feels like you're shitting on my effort to share something interesting as a hobbyist with your pedantry.

Since you like to nitpick so much (you've done this to me on multiple occasions and even Jon Raney noticed this tendency of yours), why don't you post a better source than what I provided? As in the real original score by the composer that's not the dumpster-fire, mass-market shit I posted?

This is discouraging, and I regret sharing what I enjoy/found.

This will be the last time I talk about chords.

Brent, the five or six posts about your score amount to an interesting thread.

Ignoring the goobers is a learned skill. It takes time. I find that calling them goobers helps actually.

As a proper jazz dork, I can tell you that a lot of people start doing this work fairly late in their journey (myself included) and across the board, they wish they’d started doing it sooner.

[brent.h]

(deleted)

[pamosmusic]

Not my business one way or the other.

[Mick-7]

why don't you post a better source than what I provided? As in the real original score by the composer that's not the dumpster-fire, mass-market shit I posted?

Pretty sure that "dumpster fires" were not a thing in 1943. I answered this question earlier, "I did not want to post copyrighted material" (we're not supposed to do that) but I'll compare the chords and get back to you. Sorry I irritated you, they said you liked peanut butter - but apparently not spread on your lead sheet.

[pamosmusic]

As someone who is not too terribly interested in pre war popular music and pretty much just plays jazz …

This is a useful endeavor for me, in large part, because the changes often differ meaningfully from the usual jazz changes and particularly at cadences. The old tunes tend to have a much much richer harmonic vocabulary and checking out the way that they get, say, from IV back to I can broaden an improvisers vocabulary in a way that extended meditations on the ii-V-I doesn’t.

[Christian Miller]

Brent, the five or six posts about your score amount to an interesting thread.

Ignoring the goobers is a learned skill. It takes time. I find that calling them goobers helps actually.

As a proper jazz dork, I can tell you that a lot of people start doing this work fairly late in their journey (myself included) and across the board, they wish they’d started doing it sooner.

Yep I used to scoff at it my very self.

Then I learned Peter Bernstein did it, and then it seemed like a good idea all of a sudden.


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[Christian Miller]

Interesting … never noticed it. I think the lead sheet and some bop versions put the V chord in place of that bar 10 iv. Which is probably why I never noticed it.

The iv is way cooler though.

I wonder if there’s an artistic reason to put it off so long. What’s the lyric at some of those big would be cadence points?

That’s weird, I always played the iv-. I couldn’t tell you where I picked that up though. I think I listened to the Miles version a lot?


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[pamosmusic]

That’s weird, I always played the iv-. I couldn’t tell you where I picked that up though. I think I listened to the Miles version a lot?


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iReal does. It has the bVII as an alternate change though.

[kris]

I wonder where the original jazz guys learned the tunes from?

Probably the real book.

I am also original jazz guy...:-)...or I try to be...?
Besides, jazz musicians are also composers of their solos.
There are jazz musicians who can hear brilliantly and learn from the recordings or old recordings.
Not a single real composer can envy the ear of outstanding jazzmen.

[kris]

As someone who is not too terribly interested in pre war popular music and pretty much just plays jazz …

This is a useful endeavor for me, in large part, because the changes often differ meaningfully from the usual jazz changes and particularly at cadences. The old tunes tend to have a much much richer harmonic vocabulary and checking out the way that they get, say, from IV back to I can broaden an improvisers vocabulary in a way that extended meditations on the ii-V-I doesn’t.

And do you have an idea for tunes composed by outstanding jazz musicians?
Maybe there are versions with other chord changes somewhere in the archives?
That would be very interesting for everyone.
I am very interested in the work of Thelonius Monk.

[kris]

As someone who is not too terribly interested in pre war popular music and pretty much just plays jazz …

This is a useful endeavor for me, in large part, because the changes often differ meaningfully from the usual jazz changes and particularly at cadences. The old tunes tend to have a much much richer harmonic vocabulary and checking out the way that they get, say, from IV back to I can broaden an improvisers vocabulary in a way that extended meditations on the ii-V-I doesn’t.

Search until you find that really correct and original chord.
There are so many wonderful recordings on the Internet that it's enough for me.
I also have a collection of over a thousand jazz records.
I've already shown it with the tune Summertime/thread/ – how many brilliant jazz versions there are.

[pamosmusic]

Search until you find that really correct and original chord.
There are so many wonderful recordings on the Internet that it's enough for me.
I also have a collection of over a thousand jazz records.
I've already shown it with the tune Summertime/thread/ – how many brilliant jazz versions there are.

Kris, I have to be honest here. I really don’t understand the objection.

Is anyone here saying that they don’t look for changes in jazz recordings? Did anyone say they can’t find enough jazz recordings?

Honestly it sounds like you’re being stubborn for the sake of it.

[pamosmusic]

And do you have an idea for tunes composed by outstanding jazz musicians?
Maybe there are versions with other chord changes somewhere in the archives?
That would be very interesting for everyone.
I am very interested in the work of Thelonius Monk.

Sure man. You’d listen to the tunes.

Question:

If you want to learn Well You Needn’t, do you listen to Monks version? What about Miles? Monk thought Miles screwed up his changes.

So if it’s permissible to listen to the composers version of a jazz tune, as well as someone who innovated on it, then why are you so opposed to doing the same with a Tin Pan Alley tune?

[pamosmusic]

I am also original jazz guy...:-)...or I try to be...?
Besides, jazz musicians are also composers of their solos.
There are jazz musicians who can hear brilliantly and learn from the recordings or old recordings.
Not a single real composer can envy the ear of outstanding jazzmen.

Where did Miles and Parker and Ahamad Jamal and Thelonious Monk learn these old tunes?

[John A.]

I was motivated to check out how the original tune sounded after seeing Guy's take on it.

I'm only going to be talking about the chorus, not verse, in the original sheet music.

I just noticed that a plain V7 chord doesn't actually appear until bar 30 and of the chorus! I don't think I've come across a tune written in a way that the V7 is so delayed.

The key is in Ab.

A section

Ab | A° | Bb- | B°
Ab/C | Db | C+ | CØ, F7b9

B section

Bb-9 | Db-maj7 | Ab | G-7, C7
F-, Db/F | Bb7 | Bb-7 | Bb-7, A7

A section

Ab | A° | Bb- | B°
Ab/C | Db | C+ | CØ, F7

C section

Bb-9 | Db-maj7 | Ab | Gb6, C7
Bb-7 | Bb-7, Eb7 | Ab, F-11 | Bb-7, Eb+7


I'm aware that other chords like Db-maj7 and A7 can act as a stand in for the Eb7 functionally because of voice-leading, theory etc.

But isn't it remarkable that the Eb7 sound is only heard so late in the sheet music?

It creates another kind of 'release' to my ears.

Edit 1: Do have a look at the sheet music in the hyperlink above before commenting.

Edit 2: I don't care about the functions or substitutions. The point I'm trying to make is how late the composer brings Eb7 into the song. It's like he's writing the tune with the some kind of intention of avoiding the Eb7, which is amazing.

I suspect this isn't the original sheet music and changes, but is instead a reduction/re-harm a transcriber did for purposes of publishing the song distinctly from the full score of the film. It was probably also transposed for purposes of fitting in the range of most female singers. Here's the version of the song from the movie referenced in the sheet music:

It's in B, and it doesn't have the turnaround at the end (it ends on the I chord). I didn't do a full transcription, but playing along with it, it seems pretty close to the iReal version I have, as well as how it gets done in my neck of the woods. It's possible that elsewhere in the movie it's done differently (and perhaps the same as those changes), which is pretty common in musicals. It's also possible that the movie is a re-harm of Van Heusen's original score, which might indeed be what you posted. Tough to say. I would just look at what you posted as an interesting variant and not infer to much about Van Heusen's intent.

In general, it's pretty difficult to be definitive about "original score" with GASB songs. What's typically in the original musical or movie is a lot more complicated than a lead sheet or published song book, and both of those often entail somebody reducing a score from a recording. That's inherently a matter of interpretation and/or re-harmonization, and sometimes out-and-out alteration to turn it into something that people can sing at a party.

[AllanAllen]

Mick, it feels like I'm pointing at the moon, but you're focused on my finger and how defective it is. I think you have completely missed the point of this entire thread.

I'm a non-American and a non-jazz student who's coming to this music with what little resources I can find online, and it feels like you're shitting on my effort to share something interesting as a hobbyist with your pedantry.

Since you like to nitpick so much (you've done this to me on multiple occasions and even Jon Raney noticed this tendency of yours), why don't you post a better source than what I provided? As in the real original score by the composer that's not the dumpster-fire, mass-market shit I posted?

This is discouraging, and I regret sharing what I enjoy/found.

This will be the last time I talk about chords.

Well, this sucks to read I thought the thread was cool. I'm working on Cherokee and noticed some people go to Ebm instead of Ab9. I saw Christian did a video about Cherokee a decade ago, but I haven't watched it yet.

[kris]

Kris, I have to be honest here. I really don’t understand the objection.

Is anyone here saying that they don’t look for changes in jazz recordings? Did anyone say they can’t find enough jazz recordings?

Honestly it sounds like you’re being stubborn for the sake of it.

I don't understand what I'm supposed to be stubborn about.
Please read carefully from the beginning of everyone's statements.

[Christian Miller]

Sure man. You’d listen to the tunes.

Question:

If you want to learn Well You Needn’t, do you listen to Monks version? What about Miles? Monk thought Miles screwed up his changes.

So if it’s permissible to listen to the composers version of a jazz tune, as well as someone who innovated on it, then why are you so opposed to doing the same with a Tin Pan Alley tune?

Mike innovated copiously over Monk haha. Then it soaked into the carpet and there’s no way of getting it out. Especially that cut …

Monks a funny one because not one of his contemporaries takes him quite seriously as a composer. I mean they all know he’s hip, and they all like the melodies but when they play something like Round Midnight they sand down the brilliant corners and make it all a bit more congruent with the (then) current practice of the music. Same as they would with a standard really.

I think it’s only with retrospect that we start to hear than Monk not only heard everything he played (and indeed plays it all repeatedly often exactly the same) - and now so many decades later his music still sounds outrageously original and timeless - that we start to consider that we should try to play these things exactly as he intended. Which is NOT easy.

Tbh the main reason I want to do this is not because I think we need to play everything verbatim, but because I really can’t think of anything better than what monk did.

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[pamosmusic]

I don't understand what I'm supposed to be stubborn about.
Please read carefully from the beginning of everyone's statements.

lol

I did. It’s just not clear what the problem is or why you’re here.

[kris]

Sure man. You’d listen to the tunes.

Question:

If you want to learn Well You Needn’t, do you listen to Monks version? What about Miles? Monk thought Miles screwed up his changes.

So if it’s permissible to listen to the composers version of a jazz tune, as well as someone who innovated on it, then why are you so opposed to doing the same with a Tin Pan Alley tune?

I would like to know Monk's original - what he wrote on a piece of paper - that's all.
Monk said that his compositions were badly played.
It is probably about some nuances in musical notation.

[kris]

Where did Miles and Parker and Ahamad Jamal and Thelonious Monk learn these old tunes?

And do you know the answer....?
Maybe they listened to the radio if it worked then...
Songs that have become jazz standards.
Maybe they learned from their older friends by listening to them in clubs?
Real Books probably didn't exist then.Maybe there were songs published in books with piano accompaniment.

Do you have any interesting ideas?
ps.
Maybe mother, father, grandparents sang popular songs over the cradle of future musicians.

[kris]

lol

I did. It’s just not clear what the problem is or why you’re here.

This is very unpleasant.

[brent.h]

@John, yup, I don't disagree with you. We'll never know the intent. I'm just working with what I have access to.

You mention that lead sheets could quite likely be reductions of score from a recording. However, the reverse could also be true:

starting very simply like this handwritten score:

and then adding complexity till it sounds like this:

Could some lead sheets actually be what a composer first came up with? Who knows? Nobody was keeping track which came first.

And, given the trajectory of the discussion in this thread, really, in the end, who cares?

Perhaps I was wrong to use the word "original" in my first post. I deeply regret bringing up this topic.

-----

@Christian, bruh you'll love these!

Monk was freaking nu-metal even before the late 1990s!
(the chord being played in this video is a typical nu-metal sound Linkin Park, P.O.D., Korn loved)

1st recording of Round Midnight... so dark and haunting:

[pamosmusic]

This is very unpleasant.

Well yeah I’d agree with you there.

But I was being serious. You don’t think it’s a worthwhile pursuit, so it’s not clear why you’re here.