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We covered this before; There is no "side" here, but if one wishes to frame what is going on using "sides", than one side is for banning content and one side is for sharing content.
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
From that framing the trolls, Stern and Vignola are on one-side, and fans of these fine players, their music, and live jazz music in general, are on the other-side.
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02-03-2025 02:27 PM
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Your comment doesn't answer my point.There are many video's of Stern online without the negative comments.Why all the negative comments when he appears on Guitar Night?People love to empower themselves by being critical of others whether warranted or not. Being critical of an artist is not something new.I stopped going to guitar shows years ago because a majority of antendee's were only there to criticize and say how they were better when in all honesty they were a middling player at best.Artists today who want to be on social media have to accept the bad along with the good or just not be on there to begin with.I'll say it again,if the comments are so bad when he appears on Guitar Night then just turn off the comments for that night. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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We don't know how it was getting to him, he could have been getting ripped apart on his social media or in his emails, not just the comment section.
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It might be related to the permanent nerve damage in his right hand. Got to be so tough after years of playing at a certain level and being one of the greats.
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Pasquale rolls too much tone off for me. Originally Posted by RJVB
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I'm confused. Are you saying that when you were going to "guitar shows", that a majority (i.e. > 50%), were openly criticizing the musicians on stage? E.g. booing, yelling stuff like "you're crap", etc.... Frankly I find that hard to believe. Originally Posted by nyc chaz
I've been to hundreds of "guitar shows" (as well as many other jazz shows), and not once did I see someone do what you're implying they did. Yea, sometimes a group would be too loud (mostly woman out to be seen, then to see live music), but in 95% of the venues someone representing the venue would ask them to tone it down.
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I still say so-what. If someone that wishes to be in the public spotlight can't handle being "ripped apart", they should find another profession. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Easy to say if you're not the one on the receiving end. One could just easily- and more reasonably- say "if you don't like Mike Stern's playing, don't watch the video." That's my choice when there is someone on there whose music I don't particularly care for. I suspect a lot of of the anti-Mike sentiment comes from the modern day equivalent of moldy figs.
I really like Mike's playing and the joy that he projects when he does. If anything he seems to project more joy since his injury than before. While he cannot do finger picking stuff that he used to do, his use of a pick seems to have gotten back to where he was previously. His playing is remarkably fluid, particularly given what he's gone through. I'll admit that I am often not that enamored of his tone, but I can separate his brilliant playing from that easily- and a fair amount of the time I like his tone.
He also sings quite well, which I did not know until seeing a recent video of him on his tour supporting his newest recording. Nice job on "Red House."
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We're still talking about Mike Stern right? Originally Posted by jameslovestal
Just seems a little late for suggesting he find another profession, considering he’s already made it to the very top of the one he chose.Last edited by pamosmusic; 02-03-2025 at 10:28 PM.
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You’re jealous he’s in the spotlight and you aren’t. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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Mike Stern is one of the best to ever pick up the instrument. Can you imagine the pain of having an accident and being unable to play to the high standard you had set for yourself?
James, I'm sorry man, but you are so far out of line here. Embarrassing.
This is the reason real pros never join here.
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Because a lot of the people who watch guitar night are guitar fans, not jazz fans. They have a stodgy idea of what jazz guitar should sound like and Stern doesn't fit it. Originally Posted by nyc chaz
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You are free to believe whatever you want.I was not talking about concerts where someone is paying to see a specific artist,i was talking about guitar shows where guitars are on display and there are guest artists.They are not yelling but talking amongst themselves and being critical like they are so much better.It's like the old joke of how guitarists many does it take to change a lightbulb? It takes one hundred,one to change the bulb and 99 to say they could do it better.I heard that joke for the first time 50 years ago and sorry to say there is al lot of truth in that joke.You only have to look at comments on this forum criticizing Tim Lerch,Frank Vignola,Larry Carlton.etc for what i am talking about.I may not love every guitarist i hear,but i can appreciate talent when i see it and what it took to achieve that level of playing. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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I can say from experience that online guitarists are the worst haha. In real life they usually behave themselves.
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Like myself, the majority on this forum are hobby players, who don't really have the Jazz guitar playing ability to be constructively critical of professional players. IMHO.
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I also just think people in other types of Important Business forget very easily that entertainers and artists, in their public facing roles, are just people doing their business.
If someone had a really negative business engagement with a business partner or customer and said they’d be willing to continue the relationship but these are the terms moving forward, I think that would actually be perfectly reasonable. Maybe even gracious.
But people tend not to see folks in service or entertainment roles in that way.
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IMHO that's not entirely wrong. Doesn't mean you can't want to limit "unnecessary" critiques. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
No. The real pros I've known simply don't have the time to dwell on here. We do have a few who underline that but rarely posting at all. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
About technique, no, though you don't actually have to be able to master anything yourself to have the knowledge about how it ought to be done (a bit like how a "pure natural" player who never had to solve any difficulties will probably never make a good teacher). Originally Posted by GuyBoden
But the implication of the statement above is that art critiques have to be experts themselves in the execution of the art they criticise. Which is typically not the case.
And AFAIK the issue with MS is the choices he makes about the kind of tone he produces. That's got nothing to do with technique but a question of personal choice (I'm assuming it's not the equivalent of a singer going for an artificial autotune sound to cover up whatever handicaps in his or her technique). And for that, yes, you have to be able to take flak if your choices take you far out of the confines of the established norms and values.
All that said, if the trolls in question really go the length to conduct their business outside of the comments sections the only solution would indeed be not to post the videos. But then again, why would the same trolls not hunt down all the other content he has online and get their kicks from commenting that where they can? Originally Posted by AllanAllan
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My dude, no one here is paid to post on this site professionally. By which I mean, everyone here has some other gig unless they’re retired. They post here because they want to. Or they choose not to post here because they don’t want to. Originally Posted by RJVB
I know a couple people who left because they got tired of getting criticism from people who hadn’t put in the time to know their own a** from their own elbow. It is a real thing. Not the only reason there aren’t more high level players floating around — but certainly part of it.
Full time musicians are quite busy, but I can tell you from experience this site can be a great way to kill time on a layover.
More likely they just prefer to talk music with people who they think understand what they’re saying and where they’re coming from
No but art critics do have to know quite a lot about art and have a really thorough appreciation and understanding of what they’re criticizing.About technique, no, though you don't actually have to be able to master anything yourself to have the knowledge about how it ought to be done (a bit like how a "pure natural" player who never had to solve any difficulties will probably never make a good teacher).
But the implication of the statement above is that art critiques have to be experts themselves in the execution of the art they criticise. Which is typically not the case.
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Stern presumably like most of us wanted to be as great a guitarist as he could be, and the public spotlight bit was just the natural corollary of the fact that he was so damn good - it wasn't the 'wish' itself, just the by-product. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
Personally, I don't think anyone ought to be 'ripped apart' simply for their guitar playing. Why should Stern, as an artist and human, have to handle being 'ripped apart'? I agree with others here, your post sounds resentful of Stern, like he's some bigshot who ought to take whatever people throw at him just because he's so great.
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I was making a general comment, but you're correct as it relates to Stern. Maybe he should retire. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
NOTE: I don't wish for him to retire. I enjoy his playing, and I want to see this Vignola night and every other performance that is out there. But if one can't handle the stress from immature moron trolls, maybe they should get out of the business. Again, I don't wish to see the trolls WIN, and that is what happens if one gives in to them. It only increases what they do.
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As for asking the "why should" question, I assume that is rhetorical. You're bright, you know that answer: it is part of having to live with other human beings. Originally Posted by James W
Anyone that is in the public eye, have to deal with being attacked (ripped apart, put down, etc....), by others.
To me the better response if just to give those trolls the finger and turn up the volume!
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Or maybe he should do what he wants to do and conduct his business the way he pleases. He's one of the best jazz guitarists of the last fifty years so if he wants to show up and only play Stella By Starlight for two hours, and needs bottomless Skittles and complementary fuzzy slippers to perform, he can ask for that and people will probably give it to him because he's worth it. You want to see him, you can go to New York and buy a ticket. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
Sure man. You don't want to see him retire, but maybe he should. You don't want to see the trolls win, but the things he's doing to make performing workable for himself are indication that he should let them win.NOTE: I don't wish for him to retire. I enjoy his playing, and I want to see this Vignola night and every other performance that is out there. But if one can't handle the stress from immature moron trolls, maybe they should get out of the business. Again, I don't wish to see the trolls WIN, and that is what happens if one gives in to them. It only increases what they do.
Got it.
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Thanks for explaining what a "guitar show" was. I've never been to one. I have gone to a few jazz guitar camps. There the vast majority of students were very respectful of the instructors (pros). Of course, there would always be one-guy that during breaks would act like he knew better, that he was better, etc... During a break I just happened to find a table with that-guy. But the second day, I noticed he alone at a table! Originally Posted by nyc chaz
PS: I have criticized the instructor methods and their ability to communicate. Not at the camp, but at this forum. E.g. the Central Coast Jazz Camp. Great players and fine musicians, but that doesn't make for an instructor that is good at communicating concepts etc.., especially in a group setting. That is an art in itself.
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This betrays a glaring lack of acquaintance with the actual people you're criticizing here. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
Ask 200 people on the street who Mike Stern is and probably zero actually know. This is not a "public figure" who has made some bargain with the public in return for widespread fame and a significant payday.
I don't know Mike, but I've had the pleasure of meeting a lot of guys with a similar level of acclaim. The first time I saw Peter Bernstein play, I was on my way inside when I saw him lugging his amp up the subway stairs. Met some other guys through my work and they'd give me their cell numbers to let them know when their guitars were ready to be picked up. I was working at a jazz club and stopped Bill Charlap once and asked him for a ticket. They kept me at the door because I was one of two or three people on the forty person staff who would recognize the heavy jazzers when they walked in to listen, and I still didn't recognize Bill. These are people who make a comfortable living that keeps them in small apartments in Washington Heights or 3BR houses near the universities where they teach. They're not divas and stars who demand special treatment.
Try a little grace on this one and consider asking their "fans" to behave better before asking them to put up with all the crap. Or be okay with the decisions they make to minimize the crap in their lives.
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Seems I have to repeat that I'm not your nor anyone else's dude. That term may be acceptable in the US but you're on a forum hosted elsewhere and not just visited by US citizens. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Oh, was I wrong in assuming that real pros referred to musicians rather than writers of some sort of sort?, no one here is paid to post on this site professionally.
I guess I'll have to take my observation back then.
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