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I have to concur with Henry here.
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08-05-2014 04:04 PM
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"Really. Let's everyone shut up. Please."???
Originally Posted by henryrobinett
After you've had your say, which included a scolding of me? Not a chance in hell. I wasn't the one who interjected the topic of racism into a discussion about the deterioration of the jazz market. You can talk to SuperFour about that one. And when did I ever purport to be an expert on racism?
Do you really believe that only a black man (woman) can be aware of and angered over the injustices of racism? Do you really believe that all whites are indifferent to that part of history or are racists? I'm an Italian American. Would you suggest that Italians were never subjected to racism? Or Jews? Or Japanese? Or Koreans? Or Irish?
It's true it was far worse and far more despicible for African Americans. But so too was it for the Native Americans. Should we all just hold onto our anger over it and continue to be resentful of anyone of a different ethnic origin? I don't need a lesson in race related matters from you or anyone else. Nor do I need to be or tolerate being scolded by you it.
The anger spewed in your post confirms that you have no intentions what so ever of even trying to get past and ugly time in our history. Let's see how well that serves you in your life time.
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"I wasn't the one who interjected the topic of racism into a discussion about the deterioration of the jazz market."
I'm getting the impression that you think it's a a breach of some sort of unspoken etiquette to suggest that subtle racism plays a role in the decision making processes of some politicians and business people.
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I agree with Henry.
But I would add this, which has nothing to do with race but something to do with music: lots of musical genre that were once big deals have lost their audiences and become smaller deals. (Heck, the Broadway musical--as a genre--has had its ups and downs, having been pronounced "dead" more than once.) Doo-wop was huge, disco was huge, rockabilly was huge, but none of them are that big anymore. I'm not sure how the blues is doing now but I would be surprised if were doing as well as it did in the '60s and '70s.
What's a big deal now might not be in twenty years. I suspect bluegrass will still be chug-a-lugging along but that almost no one will be listening to it then either. People will still be playing jazz too, but not very many will be listening. There's no mystery here: it's not music aimed at the current popular taste.
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Blues appears to be doing better than ever. That's the word I get from my numerous friends and colleagues that record and tour in that genre. Still, even if Blues is one of the most successful niche genres, it's touring that makes the living for the vast majority of the Blues performers. As time goes by, royalties paid to artists will dwindle as free downloads wax. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Your points relate, as far as I can see, to the populatity and commercial success of different styles. If Jazz is an art form, it can't rely on either popularity or commercialism, it must be funded by sources both public and private.
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Likewise, I'm getting the impression that you think it's a breach of some sort of unspoken etiquette to offer any rebuttal of what someone (me) feels is an incorrect assessment of racism being at the core of the demise of jazz music. Originally Posted by SuperFour00
Subtle racism?? As Henry rightfully pointed out, I'm certainly no expert on the subject of racism. But, I'm knowlegeable enough to know that there's nothing subtle about it. There's no gray area in racism. Your post accused those other than black people of holding back funding for jazz, purposely . . . as an intentional racially discriminatory action. That's just totally bogus.Last edited by Patrick2; 08-05-2014 at 07:15 PM. Reason: spelling
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I never heard any serious definition of "art form" that included 'must be funded by sources both public and private.' Originally Posted by SuperFour00
Probably the worst thing that ever happened to jazz was the idea that it was an art form. It's fine with me if we stop talking about jazz as an art form, period.
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But, how could we stop talking about jazz as an art form when that's what it is? Are jazz musicians not artists? Are any and all performers not artists? Are there not schools for the performing arts? Is jazz not included in those schools? Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
As with any art form that is traditionaly American . . if ticket and/or recorded versions of performances not supporitng it . . and public funding alone is insufficient . . then I'm of the opinion that American tax dollars should be used in support of it. How else do we keep it alive as an important part of our history and our culture if commercial enterprise and public funding is inadequate?
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If one uses "artist" in the broad sense, then bluegrass fiddlers and hip-hop vocalists are artists, not to mention pop songwriters. I'm fine with that usage, but I don't think ANYONE is advocating "arts funding" for anyone who calls himself (-or is called by someone else) an artist. Originally Posted by Patrick2
I think because jazz was once popular, many think that it should be popular again and there should be a good living in it. (I'm surprised at how many people who complain about "materialism" want to measure the health of jazz by how much funding money it gets and how much money the players get.)
There are probably more people playing jazz now than actually listening to it. As an "art form," it couldn't possibly be healthier!
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Artists in any, and all genres, even when they are resigned to creating a commercial product whose sole purpose is to totally pander to the market and make money, are also very unlikely to sustain a secure career. Even when the best and brightest minds are brought together to deeply analyze and ask the question..."what type of music must I perform to reach a market of any kind that will provide me with a livable income?", there is no sure answer. This is the general state of the music business today. Nobody picked jazz out of a hat and said it was doomed, it's a reflection on the whole business climate. Jazz might be healthier if the whole music scene was healthier. I'm also absolutely not talking about the creativity of the music, solely of the economics...
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The music business has changed drastically. Heck, much 'music' nowadays is not performed by musicians. Many people who pay good money for concert tickets don't mind "auto-tuned" vocals and canned music. In fact, they prefer it because it sounds more like the record.... Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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I truly value your presence here . . even if for nothing more than the entertainment value your posts provide. Originally Posted by Richb
And now with that being said . . I must go back and listen to the clip you referenced. I'm very curious about the classifications of whitest, squarest and corniest playing . . and what that might mean to you. But, I'm not even going to attempt to try to figure out the specific duration of time the term . . . yonks . . might represent. lololol
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I am glad to see you guys are having fun with the video! I am going to take some time to read the whole thing tomorrow
Jens
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To be fair, that clip is from 1984. Even funk music was stiff and non funky in 1984.
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Henry - you make a good point. Not the shut up part, but the racial minority part.
Of course, that would apply to whites in California, New Mexico, and any number of cities and towns across the US. Being a racial minority is a matter of geography, good sir.
OK, the shut up part was good too. Let's not debate race on this JM music thread for heaven's sake.
Ciao.
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I think that you make a few good points here, and others have as well when it comes to pop, technology, short attention spans, economics, superficial values etc. Originally Posted by SuperFour00
But I have another take on this that has to do with race, but not racism.
When blacks invented ragtime, people liked it, black and non-black.
When blacks invented blues, people liked it, black and non-black.
When blacks invented jazz, people liked it, black and non-black.
Same with rhythm and blues
Same with Rock & Roll (Chuck Berry, in case one needs reminding)
Same with Disco
Same with rap
Same with hip-hop.
What I'm suggesting is that the whole world follows what African Americans come up with, music wise. They can't get enough of it, whatever it is, almost. The music is unique, infectious and irresistible, isn't it? Simply stated, African Americans lead with influence when it comes to popular forms of music
So I have a theory, and will preface it by restating that I'm not talking about wild popularity here:
The theory is that if African Americans were interested in playing and promoting jazz in a big way again, others would be too. They would follow (never mind that this will never happen).
As long as the African American attitude is
"Jazz? meh"
everyone else's will be too.
Thoughts?Last edited by fumblefingers; 08-05-2014 at 09:58 PM.
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Proximity? Lol.
I teach at a school that's 100% black. Lived in the neighborhood for years too. All I learned was how MUCH NOT a minority I was.
White folks just gotta live with the fact that our lives are different than black folks. We can't pretend we "get it." And that's okay. I don't have to pretend to understand everything about a person's life to be their friend, coworker, lover, whatever.
Sometimes I think the most racist statement ever is when folks say they're "colorblind."
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a minority is a numerical concept sir. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I completely, wholeheartedly agree. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
Y'all give this man a round of applause!
I believe much of this decline in interest with intrument-based music has to do with the single-parent culture that african-americans accepted. If there is no father or male authority figure to pass on music to, we end up with a generation that favors easy-made computer music over the discipline of learning an instrument.
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Not really, sir. Its very possible to be a majority in your neighbohood, but still a minority.
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Care to define minority?
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mi·nor·i·ty (m Originally Posted by fumblefingers
-nôr
-t
, -n
r-, m
-)n. pl. mi·nor·i·ties 1. a. The smaller in number of two groups forming a whole.
b. A group or party having fewer than a controlling number of votes.
2. a. A racial, religious, political, national, or other group thought to be different from the larger group of which it is part.
b. A group having little power or representation relative to other groups within a society.
c. A member of one of these groups.
There are 316 million people in the U.S.
12.6% of them are Black.
That is a Minority.
You're welcome.
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Five Lessons the Faltering Music Industry Could Learn From TV - The Daily Beast
I thought this was an interesting read
Pardon me for not adding anything political. Lol
cheers
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I read that article and while I agree that music should NOT be given away for free, I disagree with some of the premises in the article. First, some of the best TV ever broadcast was created in the 50s and 60s. Secondly, "Sopranos" and "Breaking Bad" notwithstanding, much of the currently produced television is bleak (Game of Thrones), inane (Under the Dome) or simply reality programming; in other words, it's McDonalds burgers. Originally Posted by Jazzism
The subject of the John McLaughlin video may have been the "Music Business", but mister McLaughlin was responding mostly about Jazz, not Pop music. Let's separate these styles into categories. Classical music may have descended from folk musics, but it is no longer folk music. Similarly, Blues and early Jazz may have been advanced forms of folk music at one time, and the argument can fairly be made that Blues (and Country music) is still a form of folk music, but Jazz ... Jazz has evolved beyond it's roots. Jazz, like Classical music, is an art form, it's no longer folk music, it's no longer Pop music.
Popularity and commercial viability are irrelevant to Jazz. That it can be coincidentally popular or commercially successful to some degree is a tangential matter.
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Originally Posted by SuperFour00
mi·nor·i·ty (m-nôr-t, -nr-, m-)n. pl. mi·nor·i·ties 1. a. The smaller in number of two groups forming a whole.
b. A group or party having fewer than a controlling number of votes.
2. a. A racial, religious, political, national, or other group thought to be different from the larger group of which it is part.
b. A group having little power or representation relative to other groups within a society.
c. A member of one of these groups.
There are 316 million people in the U.S.
12.6% of them are Black.
That is a Minority.
You're welcome.
multiple definitions there, not one. minority is a smaller number than a majority - just like it says. it can be applied to anything, including race.
Regarding racial minority:
a person can't be in more than one place at a time so macro statistics at the world level aren't the only definition to pay attention to.
minorities are generally referred to as such from a country-level perspective, so as to change national policy and laws. that's fine but is only one definition. there are smaller areas too - states, cities, neighborhoods.
it is very easy to experience the minority disposition and extreme racial prejudice by being a person of one race and being placed on a certain street, in a certain, town, at a particular time of day. i know a few such places. multiple cold-blooded unprovoked murders have occurred there. all parties were strangers to each other. the only thing that the majority race on those streets knew about the isolated persons that they murdered? skin color.
it is possible for a person of race x to be in a minority in certain scenarios, and not be prejudged. on the other hand, it is possible for a person of race x to be a majority in certain scenarios, and be prejudged.
racial animus and majority/minority dynamics are frequently related concepts but are not the same.
regarding the USA, its not 1846 or 1966 any more but a lot of people speak and act like it is. it maintains complaining rights, diminishes personal responsibility, and most importantly maintains positions or power and cash inflows.
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