John McLaughlin on the state of the music business

[mr. beaumont]

Our band was cut because the district began telling our school how to spend its money.

so you liked popular music, sought out the influences of it...what are the influences of today's popular music?

kids aren't going to hear jazz unless someone plays it for them, and they're not going to play unless they have access.

[SuperFour00]

I think millions of people can play instruments, a remarkable number of them at a very high level.

There's so much educational material available to musicians either free (-through libraries or via the Internet) or for little money (-the yellow Mickey Baker book is still only around 8 bucks a copy; a Jamey Aebersold play-along with good charts and a CD is around 15) that no one can hope to work through more than a fraction of The Good Stuff. No one is suffering from a lack of musical educational material.

There's enough stuff available for free on this site alone---which is free to join and open to everyone---to keep a musician busy all his life.

Here's how education, especially public education, works: experts who know what should be taught to students set up a curriculum and establish standards. Then, instructors mentor the students to the point that they are able to master the necessary material. This counts for Music as well as other academic subjects.

There are libraries and the Internet full of Mathematics, Grammar and Spelling, History and Geography, and Science but we don't count on the curiosity of students to educate themselves on those subjects ... they are taught according to established standards. This country should consider that Art is as important as English Composition or Social Studies and not leave Music education to the ingenuity of the students to learn about it on their own off-campus time.

[MarkRhodes]

Our band was cut because the district began telling our school how to spend its money.

so you liked popular music, sought out the influences of it...what are the influences of today's popular music?

kids aren't going to hear jazz unless someone plays it for them, and they're not going to play unless they have access.

Well, the 'district' means administration. More money for computers, less money for horns. (Schools have a longstanding history of thinking This New Technology is going to change education and they spend more money on technology without improving education. Then they say it will be different with That New Technology. Once upon a time, television--in the classroom--was going to transform education. Before that, it was Sound Recording. Mimeograph machines. More recently, computers were going to do it. Like other technologies, they will suck up a boatload of education dollars, but kids won't read and write any better for it.)

I don't know what the influences are on today's popular music. It doesn't interest me. But what I did with blues early on is what I did with jazz later, and also classical music when I took an interest in it. I went to the library, checked out books, took notes, looked for records in bargain bins, and that's how I found Mingus, Monk, Charlie Parker---I certainly wasn't hearing them on the radio. Nobody told me to find those records.

They do have access. There's more access to music---classical, jazz, pop, funk, you name it--today than any generation has ever had to music. It's everywhere.

You can look at this the other way too: I suppose Shakespeare is still in high school English lit books, but this doesn't mean that many high school kids love it despite the access and exposure. Many more read "Twilight" books, which are not taught in high schools (-at least not yet).

[djangoles]

I'd be happy to pay a mandatory national Arts tax that would be directed to public schools at elementary/Jr.Sr high level......Hell I pay into the great Ponzi scheme known as Social Security.....so why the hell not....

At least I could "believe" my money is going towards something that may enrich a kids life.

[SuperFour00]

Well, there you have it, if kids want to be mechanics they can take auto shop in high school; if they want to be athletes, gym is offered all through school, but the history and appreciation of Classical Music and Jazz, they can pick that up in the streets ... that's how unimportant it is. Just wow.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, the 'district' means administration. More money for computers, less money for horns. (Schools have a longstanding history of thinking This New Technology is going to change education and they spend more money on technology without improving education. Then they say it will be different with That New Technology. Once upon a time, television--in the classroom--was going to transform education. Before that, it was Sound Recording. Mimeograph machines. More recently, computers were going to do it. Like other technologies, they will suck up a boatload of education dollars, but kids won't read and write any better for it.)

I don't know what the influences are on today's popular music. It doesn't interest me. But what I did with blues early on is what I did with jazz later, and also classical music when I took an interest in it. I went to the library, checked out books, took notes, looked for records in bargain bins, and that's how I found Mingus, Monk, Charlie Parker---I certainly wasn't hearing them on the radio. Nobody told me to find those records.

They do have access. There's more access to music---classical, jazz, pop, funk, you name it--today than any generation has ever had to music. It's everywhere.

You can look at this the other way too: I suppose Shakespeare is still in high school English lit books, but this doesn't mean that many high school kids love it despite the access and exposure. Many more read "Twilight" books, which are not taught in high schools (-at least not yet).

Well, heres the deal...you can trace back modern music pretty far and possibly never arrive at jazz.

access is regarding instruments and people who will show you how to play em.

some kids end up liking Shakespeare, right? How many would like Shakespeare if they didn't even know he existed?

[ColinO]

Valuing the arts does not mean that you have to believe that EVERYBODY needs to be educated in all the arts - at least not in the formal sense. I agree that art education is important - but which art would you suggest we spend our money and our kids' time on? Ballet, opera, classical, romantic, baroque, renaissance, jazz, pop, blues, visual arts, drama, dance, literature - oh and if it's literature, should it be romantic, Shakespeare, medieval, French, German, modern?

The reality is that Jazz is one of about a hundred different art forms that are all underfunded. In fact music in general, and jazz in particular, are probably the most generously funded art programs in existence. Most artistic activities are actually given exactly zero dollars of government money.

Of course everyone would like to see music (and particularly jazz on this forum) get all the money possible to make sure that it flourishes.

It's really not possible for the government to legislate culture...is it?

[SuperFour00]

Here's how that pans out: "If I got my parents to buy me an instrument, all those 'kids' you're talkin' about can do the same, even those semi-mythical so-called "minorities'! Let them pull themselves up by their own bootstraps."

Not.

[mr. beaumont]

When somebody's starving, do they care what's on the menu?

[SuperFour00]

Valuing the arts does not mean that you have to believe that EVERYBODY needs to be educated in all the arts - at least not in the formal sense. I agree that art education is important - but which art would you suggest we spend our money and our kids' time on? Ballet, opera, classical, romantic, baroque, renaissance, jazz, pop, blues, visual arts, drama, dance, literature - oh and if it's literature, should it be romantic, Shakespeare, medieval, French, German, modern?

The reality is that Jazz is one of about a hundred different art forms that are all underfunded. In fact music in general, and jazz in particular, are probably the most generously funded art programs in existence. Most artistic activities are actually given exactly zero dollars of government money.

Of course everyone would like to see music (and particularly jazz on this forum) get all the money possible to make sure that it flourishes.

It's really not possible for the government to legislate culture...is it?

History of Classical Music

Basic music theory

Jazz ... it's an American invention

Here's an instrument, we'll teach you how to play it if you like.

Every school.

[MarkRhodes]

Here's how education, especially public education, works: experts who know what should be taught to students set up a curriculum and establish standards. Then, instructors mentor the students to the point that they are able to master the necessary material. This counts for Music as well as other academic subjects.

There are libraries and the Internet full of Mathematics, Grammar and Spelling, History and Geography, and Science but we don't count on the curiosity of students to educate themselves on those subjects ... they are taught according to established standards. This country should consider that Art is as important as English Composition or Social Studies and not leave Music education to the ingenuity of the students to learn about it on their own off-campus time.

I grant the outsized role of experts in public education and its generally baleful influence. Rudolf Flesch's "Why Johnny Can't Read" is a devastating account of how public education experts made a drastic change whose results were demonstrably worse (-reading comprehension declined) and instead of reverting to what worked, doubled-down on what didn't.

Public schools in the US terminate after twelve years. Attendance is compulsory. Yet American newspapers are written at an eighth grade level (-and that's a dumbed down eighth grade level, not what would have counted as an eighth grade level in, say, 1964.) Further, colleges now expect most of their entering freshman to need remedial training in English. (They call it 101, but it's what was recently known as 9th-grade English.)


And that's English. Reading and writing. The one thing everyone agrees kids should learn in school. That's something they will (or at least should) use every single day for the rest of their lives, regardless of career path. Yet we have college students who cannot follow the directions on a box of macaroni and cheese.

The "innumeracy" of high school graduates---heck, college graduates--is so widespread, and well known, that some suggest the best thing to do is not bother requiring algebra in high school anymore because, "You know, what's the point? It's not like anyone actually learns it..."

What we see in recent years is a silly two-step. First, commit to standards and tell schools funding will be attached to their success in meeting them! Second, changing the standards so that schools who don't meet the standards still get their funding. It is a sham.

And to the surprise of no one well versed in this area, the place where many people who get into college but aren't very bright yet want a secure (if not high paying) career choose to focus their attention is, you guessed it: education. No one is even surprised any more, yet alone scandalized, by the inability of education majors to write readable prose.

[Stevebol]

I emailed Sonny Rollins and asked him if he had any ideas about improving the way jazz is taught. It's not complicated folks. Just ask people who know what they're talking about.

I'm going to contact some other people too. I tried to get a hold of local legend Manty Ellis. I wrote him a letter asking for lessons but he didn't respond. Dude lives like 3 blocks away from me but the only way to contact him is through an institution? I think he wants to teach a particular course but there's some resistance. OK, I didn't want lessons that bad anyway.
OK, I just emailed Ahmad Jamal.
Going to pass on David Baker.
Maybe Kenny Burrell?

I need to do a little more research.

[Patrick2]

When I want a political discussion, I never listen to guitar players - I much prefer horn players.

Why?? Because their all . . "blow hards"?? But, that door was just too wide open for me not to walk through it.

[mr. beaumont]

The first step to improvement might be teaching it at all

[ColinO]

In all honesty, while I would love my kids' high school to send money on instruments and teach them about jazz (it actually does by the way) but I would much prefer that they teach them math better than they do, and science better than they do, and computer science better than they do, and English better than they do, and languages better than they do.

I think it suck that music programs are being cut but you don't need to be rich to give your kids an appreciation for music.

The reality is that it is the rare great musician indeed who became great because his high school gave him access to a trombone and taught him to play Night Train in the stage band. I don't think the waning of jazz has much to do with the lack of government funding just like I don't think its rise had anything to do with government funding.

[mr. beaumont]

And to the surprise of no one well versed in this area, the place where many people who get into college but aren't very bright yet want a secure (if not high paying) career choose to focus their attention is, you guessed it: education. No one is even surprised any more, yet alone scandalized, by the inability of education majors to write readable prose.

Well, thats just plain insulting. To me and other teachers.

[SuperFour00]

I grant the outsized role of experts in public education and its generally baleful influence. Rudolf Flesch's "Why Johnny Can't Read" is a devastating account of how public education experts made a drastic change whose results were demonstrably worse (-reading comprehension declined) and instead of reverting to what worked, doubled-down on what didn't.

Public schools in the US terminate after twelve years. Attendance is compulsory. Yet American newspapers are written at an eighth grade level (-and that's a dumbed down eighth grade level, not what would have counted as an eighth grade level in, say, 1964.) Further, colleges now expect most of their entering freshman to need remedial training in English. (They call it 101, but it's what was recently known as 9th-grade English.)


And that's English. Reading and writing. The one thing everyone agrees kids should learn in school. That's something they will (or at least should) use every single day for the rest of their lives, regardless of career path. Yet we have college students who cannot follow the directions on a box of macaroni and cheese.

The "innumeracy" of high school graduates---heck, college graduates--is so widespread, and well known, that some suggest the best thing to do is not bother requiring algebra in high school anymore because, "You know, what's the point? It's not like anyone actually learns it..."

What we see in recent years is a silly two-step. First, commit to standards and tell schools funding will be attached to their success in meeting them! Second, changing the standards so that schools who don't meet the standards still get their funding. It is a sham.

And to the surprise of no one well versed in this area, the place where many people who get into college but aren't very bright yet want a secure (if not high paying) career choose to focus their attention is, you guessed it: education. No one is even surprised any more, yet alone scandalized, by the inability of education majors to write readable prose.

I doubt education has quality control issues because of the ignorance of teachers or the standards set by the authorities and there appointees. I gather it's because many of the students are spending more time texting and watching videos on their smart phones than studying ... in other words, school doesn't work very well unless reinforced by parents and it works even worse in the absence of sufficient discipline.

If you are of the opinion that public education does not work, what is the alternative?

In the 70s, I taught at a summer "inner-city" Jazz program. Some of the students were in gangs, some were functionally illiterate. Most of them learned to play an instrument, some got pretty good, and a couple got famous. You don't give up on kids because the going gets rough.

[SuperFour00]

In all honesty, while I would love my kids' high school to send money on instruments and teach them about jazz (it actually does by the way) but I would much prefer that they teach them math better than they do, and science better than they do, and computer science better than they do, and English better than they do, and languages better than they do.

I think it suck that music programs are being cut but you don't need to be rich to give your kids an appreciation for music.

The reality is that it is the rare great musician indeed who became great because his high school gave him access to a trombone and taught him to play Night Train in the stage band. I don't think the waning of jazz has much to do with the lack of government funding just like I don't think its rise had anything to do with government funding.

Do you know which famous Jazz musicians had a formal music education in school, and which didn't?

[ColinO]

Do you know which famous Jazz musicians had a formal music education in school, and which didn't?

Yes.

[SuperFour00]

Yes.

Great! Which did?

[ColinO]

Great! Which did?

Well certainly not the ones that didn't.

[SuperFour00]

Well certainly not the ones that didn't.

That's what I thought. When come back, bring data.

[ColinO]

That's what I thought. When come back, bring data.

You clearly did very little thinking. Nothing I said requires data. Your demand for it is vacuous. Clearly you should have spent less time in jazz class and more time with rhetoric.

[Stevebol]

Great! Which did?

Herbie Hancock?

[vinlander]

Formal education is now something necessary to achieve any level in any field because competition is very high.
I don't think Jazz cats from the time needed it but now try to get a job as a talk show musician without a paper...
Not possible anymore for Jack of all trade to learn a job on the spot